Vanessa Caruso: 0:00

Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we seek to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life. Hi,

Andy Withrow: 0:18

welcome. This is this is a two for one. We're doing two podcasts at once. This is a bear with me podcast that Vanessa and I run regularly every week. And this is also a neighborhood table podcast for table radio, featuring Josh Wilton. Several for those of you who don't know who Josh Walton is, we've been friends for like, a million years. I can't remember we went to university together, but we didn't really know each other until we started driving buses in Alaska together. And we went to seminary together region college y2k,

Josh Wilton: 0:55

I think, is the biggie.

Andy Withrow: 0:56

Yeah, that's kind of I think we were we bunkered together for y2k, or something like that. I remember. But that ended up not being a thing. So we're here now. And our families moved to Victoria together in 2009. To help start the new church, which is now the table church, which was really a precursor to table radio, which is started this year. And, and bear with us, this kind of flowed out of that. So these two are kind of coalescing together, because we're both talking about the same things. Bear with me. We've been talking about creative engagement. And that's, that's part of our rooted series at the table. So several weeks ago, Josh kicked off this one, creative engagement. Vanessa, do you have the actual Coraline, I don't

Vanessa Caruso: 1:47

have it exactly. But it's we long to creatively engage with God, culture, creation, community, and one another. Yeah. And one another, because we believe in a God who is creative and restores and renews.

Andy Withrow: 2:04

That's, yeah, that's 30%. Yeah, so taking this idea Josh, kicked us off a few weeks ago. And I wrote a summary of his sermon in about three or four sentences. Here it is in Genesis one god frames and fills all of creation with light, life, goodness and glory. Sounds pretty good. Genesis two, he breathes his life and image into gardeners. Because he wants his creatures to take his good stuff, and make it good are those are your words. But in Genesis three, the plot moves right along in Genesis, humanity strays from God's goodness, by sowing seeds of distress, autonomy and shame. And so enter the weeds, the toil and the dust. But for all this, the original mission to take God's could creation and recreate with it is not undone. Just complicated, then you took us through a bit of poetry and limitations. Which we won't get into now. But but following up with that Vanessa preached a couple Sundays ago on Creative engagement. Can you give us a quick summary of what you talked about?

Vanessa Caruso: 3:25

Yeah, I felt like the parable of the great of the parable, what is of great price, Pearl of Great pearl of great pair of great price, no wonder really captured for me what life is like creatively engaging with God, kind of the idea of being a jewel merchant, on the hunt for things of value. So instead of thinking first about, okay, what is the pearl of great price, which is the way I always have read that parable, like we're supposed to know what the answer is that we're looking for. I thought, what are the conditions that are conducive for being that kind of person who creatively engages with life and with God, and the four conditions that came up for me as I thought about it were time like, tick tock time versus Kairos time. Instead of aiming for success, I thought to be a creative person. I have to reframe things as an experiment where negative results are just as helpful as positive otherwise, I won't try new or hard things. I have to reframe my pursuit of knowledge or expertise. My instinct is I have to know more, learn more, get better, be good. Before I do stuff creatively, and instead what I'm after, actually, as a Christian is wisdom, which is not something you accumulate or digest or consume. In the same way, wisdom I see as something we receive when we apply knowledge to our lived experience with time and reflection, and the grace of God, it's something that we get. And then the last condition I felt like was to be a creative person, I have to recognize that I'm always trying to prevent pain. And instead of preventing pain, the creative call for me is to expect that there will be provision in pain. So instead of aiming to not get hurt, I aim to get hurt or know that I will, oh, get heartbroken. I'll pick up some scratches in the process. I'll make a fool of myself, all those things, but my trust, which reminds me of your sermon, talking about the tree of life, and the Tree of Knowledge being a trust issue. I have to trust that God will provide what I need in those blunders, and those heartbreaks, which frees me to live creatively, because otherwise, I'll just want to withhold and protect. So those Yeah, those are like how my conditions and we thought it would be fun to ask Josh.

Andy Withrow: 6:03

Yeah, it was so so the bear with me episode last week was so helpful just to kind of hear you the way you put it. The five, you had five conditions on the yacht one, you got a bonus one episode. for creative engagement in your own life was so helpful just to hear the very practical how it works out and how you think about it, we thought it'd be fun to do that with Josh, because we know that he had a lot of photography examples that he didn't get to in his sermon, and even the neighborhood table that we had recorded after that. And so be fun to take some time looking at that, and kind of hearing what it looks like for him. So how is he just gonna go? Or do you have questions? Or might

Vanessa Caruso: 6:44

I think we should just ask him? Great Yeah, of engagement.

Josh Wilton: 6:47

Ask away. How do you creatively it might be good to just give a little bit of a background for people who don't know, I went to school, for a master's in theology and art. To write a novel that was my purpose for going to seminary was so that I could be wiser, because I knew or understood or believed that fiction was an act of truth telling. And I needed to be more certain about truth before I finished the novel. So I thought, Well, why don't I pair this novel I was working on in with my studies. And so that began to end. And it was to be a photographic novel as well. That was much too ambitious. So I just stuck with a 300 page plus novel.

Andy Withrow: 7:34

Yes, you wanted to keep it simple. visible for once, yeah.

Josh Wilton: 7:39

And during that process while I was writing the novel, then I got sort of suckered into the Anglican Church in church planting suckered and the rest surprising venture. So now most people know me as a pastor, priest, church planter, but really, my, my vocation is as a creative person like that, as my I see that as very transferable to the very work of church planting is culture making. So this is, yeah, this topic is sort of my sweet spot. This is my chief interest and how I live my life. I think.

Vanessa Caruso: 8:17

So you didn't go to Regent to become a priest?

Josh Wilton: 8:20

No, I know. It was. It was after and then I had to get another equivalent of another masters to, to do this. So. That's a long time at Regent college? Yeah, great, good times, you know, seven years or something like that?

Unknown: 8:37

Wow. Yeah.

Josh Wilton: 8:40

And in the process, I went to like, as part of my art studies there, I also went to a place called focal point, which is photography school. So I was all up in the photography, and in the in the writing stuff. So this is all quite a side shift. Along the way, Katie Wilton, my wife married an artist and got a priest. So that was quite a surprise for her sort of a bait and switch, I think she feels at times.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:12

And you're I didn't, I didn't totally realize the years much into photography as you are into writing. Like I think of you as someone who's writing a novel, but you both both a part of your life. Yeah,

Josh Wilton: 9:28

I like both my dad. And my mom. We're both creative types. Even though my dad worked at a bank. He was a cinematographer and Producer Director. So they were growing up we made movies all the time. My dad did, he did stop action kind of stuff. So with the old GI Joes when he was growing up, one of his first movies is like one of those really tall GI Joes from back in the day. And, and he made movies there, and he won an award as a young person, and for filmmaking, and then we have these crazy The home movies were like all the toys come to life and chase out all of us out of our house as absolutely crazy. Yeah, all stop action stuff. And they were even in middle school, I think or elementary school that they, my mom had wrote the script. And my dad was directing the movie called seasons of the heart, I believe it was called. And that was supposed to be a big screen movie, christian movie. And we had Kathy hearable was the lead actress, and she was a singer as well. And they had a trailer and everything if I remember, right, and, but then the financing fell through. This has been in the 80s. So I've kind of grow up in that zone. He was still a banker. My dad was, wow. So it wasn't like all, you know, kind of a creative family and that sort of movies, seeing where everyone's eccentric and always writing and drawing wasn't like that. But it's in my blood. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 11:03

Well, so you said your vote, vocation as an artist, you're an artist, priest,

Josh Wilton: 11:10

you know what I would say my vocation actually, if I was going to specify more as a creative communicator, and a culture maker, though, those are the things. I focus on almost everything I do.

Andy Withrow: 11:23

How does that have you found that engages with your role as priests in a way that maybe it's different for other people's experience, both as pastors or as people having a pastor?

Josh Wilton: 11:34

Well, it's a prophetic work. So I wrote, I had to do an academic thesis in addition to the novel for region, and it was called what is the title is called fiction. Is it true? Is it useful? Is it justifiable? So to what extent is fiction tell the truth and and can a Christian in the light of all the poverty in the world? Can they really justify spending time doing art and that sort of thing? Which I can I can make available to anyone who wants to read it? I like it was pretty good. If I don't mind, but uh, a lot of time into it,

Vanessa Caruso: 12:08

it still sounds so much like you like, is it? What are you? What are the useful and justify it sounds like you

Josh Wilton: 12:16

Yeah. Why? What do you mean?

Vanessa Caruso: 12:18

Like, like sermon series, vision and stuff like that? And like, Where

Andy Withrow: 12:23

are the negative side? Is this a complete waste of time?

Vanessa Caruso: 12:26

Yeah.

Josh Wilton: 12:27

Yeah, exactly. And the reason this is so poignant, is because I spent much time on this Easter video. And, and there's always this sense of dissatisfaction afterwards. Like, I'm like, do I really just spend my time doing that? Was that even worth it? Who cares? And that, like, Is it useful? Should I even spend my time doing that? And that's sort of the, the anti climax to every creative movement for me?

Andy Withrow: 12:59

Well, it's there's a direct parallel to their two most preachers feel on a Monday. That's right, the common thing, right, it's like, all this lead up this preparation, which could include prayer, and thoughtfulness and crafting and study and crafting, and then the big moment, and then the what was about didn't do anything. Yeah, that's Yeah.

Josh Wilton: 13:22

Which is important, I think, tied into your point, Vanessa, it can't just be about the destination, can't just be about the final product or, and in many cases, maybe in most cases, you will be disappointed. Because you have this dream, or some ideal, and maybe the goal is to touch the heavens a bit. And always, or to represent or portray something greater and transcendent. And it's always kind of lacks, and especially nowadays, where you can get so many pictures and so much music and so many videos, it's just it's so accessible, that your own work can just like, right compared to that stuff. Yeah, but that the the role, I remember is Nicholas wolterstorff. Art and action that was one of the it's a philosophy of art. And he talked about art making is being creating worlds for people to consider. And so whether it's a movie or a song, or some photos, or a novel, or a painting, it's it's telling you something about the world. It's saying consider this as a possibility.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:37

Well, that sounds like Jesus. Yes. And the only way he talked to the crowds stories, yeah. About this alternative worlds and how different it is and how weird it is.

Josh Wilton: 14:48

Exactly. Yeah. That's a great insight. It's not, I mean, some of us who are more modernist are looking towards propositional truths, and how can a thing be true and then Sometimes they can get so focused on that, that they take the stories and go, Well, here's the propositional truth and make that the most important thing. But it's not. It's it's tied in with the very form of storytelling. And we see like in the Gospel of Mark, he's constantly talking in parables. Well, throughout most of the Gospels, he almost never says things clearly. Which is sort of fun. I like that. I think that's a feature not? Oh, of course it does.

Vanessa Caruso: 15:29

Yeah.

Josh Wilton: 15:30

But it tests desire, and will you pursue and when you seek? I like that.

Vanessa Caruso: 15:36

So how did that philosophy of art? Well, Mr. Summers?

Josh Wilton: 15:46

Well, he says, He says, if there are these is the world being projected, then then we ought to consider what it's saying. And we either assimilate it or reject it. So you think about certain movies that you really like and some that you don't? Well, why do you not like certain movies? Maybe let's say there's a violent action movie, and you're not into that you don't like to? You don't want the world to be one where there's so much violence in blood? Right? No, I reject that. And I don't think it's good that people can laugh at somebody whose hand being cut off or something in a dark comedy and a Coen Brothers film or something. No, I reject that worldview. Right. And on the flip side, some people just can't stand sentimental. Yeah, they're like, that's not the real world. I intuitively resist it. And other people like not, I'll just watch movies and consume them. And they just they actually change how you think and feel about things without you knowing them. So that becomes a problem of consumption. And we're sort of ignorantly just assume other people's philosophies that are embedded within narrative. It's pretty cool, huh? So wolterstorff or maybe it was some other people who are talking about art had said that this this is a the artist. creative work is is prophetic in nature, or can be and you're gonna have false prophets and true prophets in there. And can just be commercial as well. Just to bang a buck, but fundamentally, is saying something about the world. that fun?

Vanessa Caruso: 17:28

Yeah, it's super interesting. Yeah,

Andy Withrow: 17:31

a lot of our a lot of what we talked about on bear with me is the need for a shift in imagination, how challenging that can be, like, a good like, good example is propositional truth Don't, don't help provide often don't provide a shift in imaginations, the storytelling. It's getting into some of the details you brought with you today, some photographs. Yeah. And it would be fun and interesting for us to hear kind of what the process the creative processes like for you. You just talked about spending a bunch of time and resources and energy crafting an Easter video, which has some overlap with, with some of your photography stuff, but you want to walk us through some of this.

Josh Wilton: 18:16

Yeah, there'd be a good point, again for the video. So I've woke up for three sunrises. So first of all, I had one week to do all of the video because I was so focused on the audio. So the fact that there are three sunrises to genuine sunrises, one was kind of cloudy, which you both were at, like that already is a gift, and sort of that creative stress that you go, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what the sunrise is going to look like. And I've never, I'm not a sunrise guy. Because I'm sleeping usually sound like, I have no idea how to film these. So that creative stress kind of fuels me and UK and one time I'm like, I'm not going to go I already got some footage for the first day. No, no is the first night and and I felt like I'll save it for Tuesday. And I did feel like something divine. When God says no, I know it's late, but you're gonna wake up early, just go on five hours, sleep, whatever. And I did it and it was total payoff. And then there's the moment of being there in the sun. And this is where time is so important for the creative thing I made the time aged I showed up. But also I get to be present with the sunlight. So that's that present experience. And then I also get to be present with the future because I'm imagining what this is going to look like on film and how it might be used. And also there's the element of surprises. I know what's here. Now, what I'm seeing with my eyes, but I don't know what the cameras gonna pick up really, and what it will look like after you put it in the video software. Hmm So there's there's the element of surprise to see you get to be in the present and in the future all at once and then when you get to that future moment you get to be in the present and in the past all at once and so it's bending time and that's the fun part for me. Yeah, and then it begins to say something beyond itself. I think maybe that's the trick is receiving it on both ends on the sort of the horizontal and the vertical way on on on receiving a sunrise as a sunrise. Like being in the moment and going this is a thing and let me attend to the intensity of the sun and how I'm going to have to film it like the technique and the technical elements. You requires that because this is this is a material thing it's a thing in the world that exists outside of myself for you Is there a testimony element to this like this is what happened this is what I got to see Yeah, sometimes it testimony element but more and more I'm thinking it's it's more of a hidden moment. Where it's where it's not just about the production. It's about my own life of prayer with God. that something was that word in collate, chaos, unformed is going on where I can just be in that unformed element of it because I'm spent so much time putting words to things and articulating things that this is the space where I go, I don't know, it's just kind of a an oohs, and I'm just gonna let it be in Kuwait, unformed. And I like that. So that I don't feel now I've learned I don't have to feel all the pressure of putting words and form to something. And it's not just about utility for other people. But there's a utility, or usefulness for me personally. And I can separate those two, because if I get to focus on the utility for others, that's where I get judgmental. I'm like this, this stinks. But I know that one part is just for me. So thank you, Lord,

Andy Withrow: 22:07

there's something bigger. Yeah, that's like that. There's something bigger here than just I'm just producing something.

Josh Wilton: 22:12

Yeah, for a bunch of people. So that's the horizontal thing. And I go, there is an interaction here, not just with the sunrise, but the one behind the sunrise. And then what does the sunrise say? And what does it communicate?

Andy Withrow: 22:26

It reminds me of, well, the image of someone with a tree planted by the water, it's like there's something bigger here the fruit is for the benefit of others. But you're not I mean, there's something bigger there than just just producing fruit even though Yeah, Psalm 19.

Josh Wilton: 22:42

The Heavens Declare the Glory of God. from them, that speech goes forth. There's that's a big song. In fact, we should just open it up just so we got something from the Bible in here. Yeah, this is very tied into some of my studies. I came up a bunch because there's not a lot of direct passages about creativity. And in the Bible, the whole thing is creative. Yeah. So the heavens declare the glory of God does it Psalm 19. And the sky above proclaims his handiwork, day to day pours out speech. And night tonight reveals knowledge, there is no speech nor are there words whose voice is not heard. The voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. in them, he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber and like a strong man which runs its course with joy. It is rising, it's rising is from the end of the heavens. And it circuit to the end of them. There's nothing hidden from its heat. So that Psalm 19, and then it goes on the law, the Lord is perfect. So now so you've got the two books of Revelation, as they call them, one of creation and one of the Scriptures. And both speak about God. But they are tied together. So

Vanessa Caruso: 24:05

So are you saying Psalm 19? Like those the the sky pours out speech? supports words we

Josh Wilton: 24:14

declare the glory of God? Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:16

Are you saying that you? You read that or interpret that as there's just this end in itself? ness about the sky being the sky? And about you being there for the sunset? Apart from like, let's say the camera wasn't on. And so you'd have to do set figure something else out for Easter Sunday for us. But

Unknown: 24:41

yeah, you still have that work?

Vanessa Caruso: 24:43

Yeah. Something like that. Like, what part are you relating to Psalm 19? About the horizontal and the vertical? And the encoder and the and this form is formed?

Josh Wilton: 24:56

Well, that it No, it's not just about the sunrise It's about the sunrise saying something beyond itself. Right? It's not ignoring that there's sun rays and that the clouds are there and, and how the light changes, but it's never forgetting. Or it's always keeping in mind that God is speaking to heaven do Declare the Glory of God that and a lot of us get that, especially here on Vancouver Island. That sense of transcendence and even imminence when you're out walk on a nice walk, or you're watching a sunrise or a sunset. Yeah, you get a sense that something else is going on. And and even I think the staunchest atheist is gonna still have to trick themselves talk themselves out of that feeling. I go, I know what this is a chemical reaction in my brain. I've been adapted and evolved to this, to have this sort of experience with the sun and so on. But there is that sense of it. Mm hmm.

Andy Withrow: 25:59

Do you walk us through the process of photography?

Josh Wilton: 26:01

Yeah. And you know what the photography is different than a lot of other things. Because it literally is a snapshot. Like it's a moment in time. Yeah. And so I feel, though, overall, I'm very critical of, of even a photo. There's always more work couldn't be done. There's more of a sense of finality. And then with writing, I think because I can always revise a new scene. And it might be just because if there's 330 pages of a novel, there's so if it's one picture, it's like, Why can just focus on that, and get it done. And here, I'll show you I'll, I'll post these all, like in the video. But so we're in Haines, Alaska. I'm trying to think of Katie McDonald was there, I don't think she was, it was a different road trip. I was wasn't a road trip. And we were just outside of a place called Haines, Alaska and clock one, it was a cemetery. And there was this statue of an angel. Well, human Angel, I don't know, you've seen that. And it was fascinating, because the thing that catches your eye right up right off the bat is this very sort of why it's a statue. But then it's also merge sort of with creation, and then you've got mildew, or mold, or whatever that is on there is some kind of moss. And so I circled around it, it caught my attention, just being so bright, and something so green and dark in the cemetery. And so from the one view that you've got, Andy, it's it's one picture of humanity. Right? Yeah, I showed Vanessa this, which is quite a serene look on this angel human's face. Yeah. And, boy, it isn't that nice and sweet. But then, when I moved around it to get a different angle, Vanessa's got the one that's got a clipped wing, like one of the wings is broke off, not by design, right. And I thought, well, doesn't this also say something about humanity? Yeah, and then I zoomed in. And then we've got this piece here. Which is even more bleak. Because then you can see the cobwebs, the spider webs. And it's almost completely erased the sort of buoyant smile on the face on the first picture. And then these describes humanity and our condition. But I had to attend to the details. But here's the thing, when you get there, just like when we read the sunrise with the clouds, you go, Oh, here it is. This is the moment. And you lose time there because you know, the moment will pass. And so hyper focus on whether it's the sunset or the statue, and just get as many angles as I can and compose it as well as I can. And then in the case, this is black and white. So you have no idea. This is for you young people. You have no idea what's on your film, and tell you, you process it, which is also a big surprise. Yeah. And then, like for the clipped wing, it was overexposed. So then I had to dodge. dodge it in the darkroom, so that you could really see it wasn't just white, you can see that was broken off. As opposed to just design that way. Right. So then it's really looking at the details too. And going Oh, is this too dark? Is this to light? What is it communicating? And how can I highlight the subject or something else? Some idea there's a big ball of fun.

Vanessa Caruso: 29:51

So why are you so happy with these went? Oh, yeah, they came out.

Josh Wilton: 29:54

These are some of my favorite pictures. Now here's your I'll give it Another example of something that says more than it is, this is an that was on the chill cat passes on the chilkoot Pass just outside of Skagway, Alaska. And Andy will recognize this instantly, because it's the top of the chilkoot Pass, where we gave tours. And these are trees, the little trees that look like little bonsai trees. Well, these things grow in an inhospitable environment. And the rings are, these are like 100 years old. The rains are so dense Oh, right, because they just don't have enough nutrients to go big, but they're still growing. And I think this is even now, when when I think of flourishing, I think just surviving something

Vanessa Caruso: 30:46

is victory. Yeah, like there's that one. Trini only has some branches up at the top, but like, bars,

Andy Withrow: 30:53

yeah, these aren't. There's nothing in there for skill isn't very big.

Josh Wilton: 30:56

These are not big. Yeah. No, not as tall as a human

Andy Withrow: 30:59

right. Oh, they're

Vanessa Caruso: 31:00

not Oh, no. Oh, I was seeing them as very tall.

Andy Withrow: 31:06

And they're small, scrawny, wow, trees,

Josh Wilton: 31:09

maybe? Yeah. We're gonna burn them. They would, they would give off a lot of heat as long as they would last. Because they're so densely packed. Really high Beatty use as they say, I can't remember this tour guide information. Here's another one. This one's from this one Katie Welton did back in her heyday, she did a double exposure. So back then you went to Photoshop this, this is again, you have no idea what's coming out, you would just take the same piece of film. And just two shots on the same piece of she did one of stairs in the winter snow, and then one of mannequins. And this is like Jacob's Ladder, this is Stairway to Heaven to me of angels will ascend a descent, which then goes into john. So yeah. And then it also points me towards revelation. This is just stairs in a mannequin. But now it's turned into something quite different. Right? So that's sort of a fun one.

Vanessa Caruso: 32:11

Yeah. What's the footprint son?

Josh Wilton: 32:15

Yeah, this is a frozen lake, up in the Yukon. But this again, sort of communicates to me that we're walking a tightrope between light and dark. And just the way it exposed, one of the sides was darker than the other. And then, you know, it looks really nice with the blue in color. But it doesn't point beyond itself as much as this. Right? So even stripping out color is not natural. So now you're saying something else, just by the very act of taking out the color. And it gives you a chance to highlight or focus on something even though snow is not black? Yeah. But as as I was driving here, I'm like, I would defend this. This is a great photo. And I'm very happy with it. And those are my you know, those are my steps in this new clicker.

Unknown: 33:13

Yeti,

Josh Wilton: 33:14

this is this is this, you only get these steps when it's starting to thaw. So the fact that there's a lake that's, that's fine, you can see the crack there. And it slushy on top, like a big Slurpee. And that's always kind of dangerous, too, is just fun. Sort of a fun danger.

Vanessa Caruso: 33:34

So I heard you say surprise a few times. That seems like part of what motivates you or energizes you for being creative? Yeah. And then point beyond itself. That seems like a marker of either. Good arts good. photographs. Yeah, that's

Andy Withrow: 33:54

sort of the soul of it made me think of it like these are parables. parables of human condition. Yeah. The trees to or what what survival or thriving look like just like survival. It's interesting. I was thinking like, okay for the non photographer, what's transferrable? Here in terms of living? A creatively engaged life? You said, What catches my eye paying attention to what catches my attention, and then attending to the details?

Josh Wilton: 34:22

Yeah. It was on sabbatical two summers ago, where we're up in the Yukon and I don't even know what I did with my time because I didn't read. I didn't sing. I didn't listen to music.

Andy Withrow: 34:36

Like what did I do? Like you were wrapping yourself in mosquito netting,

Josh Wilton: 34:40

netting, maybe I did stuff. Like I spent most of my time doing photography. And it's there. I realize there's Yeah, there's some principles that carry over very easily. And the first is first rule Photography is just show up, like half of the pictures I have. I was just there. It's not like I went and planned them. Like the one with the trees, the top of the past I was that's, that's a route we took all the time on our tours. And for some reason, maybe it was like a scouting trip, or I don't think it was even on an actual tour. The lighting was just right. And I took the picture, it was not that sophisticated. It's framed really well, which is kind of accidental or sort of intuitive at a certain point. All of these are just I would just happen to be there. I didn't plan the the angel, thing to angel statue. There was just there.

Andy Withrow: 35:43

There's sort of an assumption, all this that if you show up, there's an that God is present in some way or revealing himself for His glory. And that's right,

Josh Wilton: 35:52

is to show up. And then the second part is Don't miss the moment. So being able to go What is the moment as I'm driving down here, going, boy, this is really crummy lighting right now. So I'm like, is there a way though, that I could take pictures for this and get a good photo out of this? Maybe. But no, the moment would be this is the time when you edit your photos that you did get during the better lighting. Do you know not at every moment is time to go take a take a shot. So show up, don't miss the moment. And then the next thing that does relate to this overcast day is chase the light. Like everything is light photography literally means painting with light, and graphing with light. So it's all about the light. And and then tied to that is not ignoring the darkness, because the shadows are the things that emphasize like the trees in this photo are dark. And it's set in contrast to the light. And in sort of an inverse. unexpected way, because you think light is good, no light, snow is not good for life. And the thing that is alive is the dark bit. That's that's already interesting. Some fruits are assumptions about light and dark. So I also think that the drama, the interplay between the light and the dark is the most interesting part. And so I've learned from actually the photography and the sabbatical. I don't want peace. I want drama. I like that. That's why I'd rather be in the Yukon than Hawaii. I like the unexplored places. Well guess what, if you're gonna go to unexplored places, there's gonna be mosquitoes and you have to fight? And then then you're forced to go, how do I reconcile the fact that this is so beautiful, and so evil opposed to human thriving with all the bugs? So I like that. And I think that that plays out in many a good story.

Andy Withrow: 38:05

Yeah. You don't have to be a vocational artist to do to apply this to life.

Josh Wilton: 38:13

No. It's like what you were saying, Vanessa, about avoiding suffering, if that's your goal, that what an uninteresting life you will have. I mean, most of the good things that we do involve some struggle. Right? I mean, we treat education that way, that's a struggle. But it produces something good. And in the same way, it helps me reorient. In fact, I'll give away my the novel, The very ending, it's, it's in the third person, you know, hee hee, hee hee, but the narrator is the fictional is, is writing about himself, and the third person, so at the very end, the main character says, God, I asked for blessing and you gave me tragedy, and, and then the characters thinks, Hmm, maybe I should write a tragedy. And then the narrator for the first time says, Yes, I should write a tragedy. So the whole book comes out of that tragedy, which is my own lived experiences, fictionalized, but you wouldn't actually have any of that story. Apart from the struggle. Right, and his assumptions, the in the character in the novel couldn't have been up ended. Apart from being in the desolate places where he was challenged. And he saw the logical end to some bad ideas he had in bad relationships with himself and with God and with others as part of the struggle, so show up, don't miss the moment. Chase the light, pay attention to the shadows. I think those transfer over to everything every every kind of work, and relationship.

Vanessa Caruso: 39:58

Do you have some rig Other way in your life where you make space for doing this? Or do you just consider it as something you do on the go? Like any given day, you might wake up to a moment, and you might act on it? Or do you have?

Josh Wilton: 40:21

Yeah, how

Vanessa Caruso: 40:21

do you set aside time to like, cultivate this side of you

Josh Wilton: 40:26

Why? I'd first in my young 20s set off time to write a novel, and what nearly went nuts because I was in the Yukon by myself for seven months, and that didn't work out. Because it was a big block of time, and it wasn't specific enough. And I remember back then, I had this mistaken view of inspiration, which I mean, theologically means being breathed into, right, the spirit is present, but sort of on a biological or physiological level. It's like, oh, wow, this is fun. I'm into something. Right? And then I write some, and I'd be so stoked about it. And then I'd go, Okay, let me take a break, and then go play guitar for an hour now. Okay, let me go read a bit. And then it's like the moments lost. And I was so good at starting new chapters, and new start new novels. So many new novels I started, but it's actually the hard hardest part is following through for me to finish the chapter. Or to keep going once you hit the hard spot. You can see that with relationships, and you know, it's easy to the first part is the funnest. And then someone irritates you. Or worse. And now you go, what do I do now? Right, it's easy to back away, because now it's actually going to take work. But so now I go, I have any, anytime could be a moment. Whether it's working out, taking long showers. Even if I move my body just getting up from the computer, just walking around cooking, I have so many ideas. Not really cooking as much. For some reason, usually, because I'm I don't like being in the kitchen. I like the results. So then I usually watch a show or something doing something else. Oh, yeah. But yeah, any kind of quiet place. And then I have to build it into my schedule. with other people, like now's the time to sit down with Andy or with NASA. We have our regular time, every week or every other week. And then ideas come and they're big bursts as you've experienced Vanessa, right? Big bursts of things. Bear in mind take a lot of time to get there. Which is most of our early retreats when Andy and I would get away. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 42:52

This is in pre pandemic time for pandemic. Yeah. Nice to be.

Josh Wilton: 42:55

What's your experience? Because I know, because you're a creative guy. Oh, oh, thank you.

Vanessa Caruso: 43:01

It's true. We shouldn't be interviewing you.

Josh Wilton: 43:03

But what? But you've been around me for so long. Yeah. And I'm constantly surprised you don't just ditch me because I'm so my follow through is not only.

Andy Withrow: 43:19

Yeah, I think Yeah, we've we've worked together. Well, I don't I think we're just it's funny, I think we have an interesting combination of a lot of overlap, in terms of personality, and then also a lot, a lot of complimentary difference, which works out well.

Josh Wilton: 43:34

How do I not drive you crazy, though?

Andy Withrow: 43:37

I think that I don't know, I think we just understand each other like you've got, I know that when you've got lots of ideas. I don't I know that I can't jump on them all. And I know that you know that I can't jump on the ball. So there's that sort of understanding, like, the expectation isn't there that I have to take this big idea that Josh has, and run with it. And that's a lot of that's freedom for me to know that I have that, that we can work that out and, and that sort of thing. Because there's too many ideas. Yeah, I'm also married to someone who has a lot of ideas. So, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of practice get

Josh Wilton: 44:16

in from both ends. Yeah,

Andy Withrow: 44:17

lots of ideas. And not enough time. So yeah, I think working I think we work those things out pretty early on. Starting from starting this from scratch from our community from just moving here and trying to figure out what it looks like. So that's, and I do notice that that's, that's where people who work with you have to learn that or else they can they can get into trouble, where they're like, oh, Josh expects me to like, I don't think he does think he was just this is the brain start like there's a lot of ideas stage you can, you're kind of free to say Ooh, I like that one. Let's let's go do that one. Or to say no, I don't I think I can do that. Yeah. So I think I'm comfortable there.

Josh Wilton: 45:04

But that was difficult for you. Right?

Vanessa Caruso: 45:06

Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 45:07

take some getting used to.

Vanessa Caruso: 45:09

Yeah,

Josh Wilton: 45:09

I

Vanessa Caruso: 45:11

remember, you know, just a feeling of like a whirlwind coming in the room is what it felt like sometimes to me. Just like, wow, where did that come from? That is totally not on the agenda. Enter whirlwind. And the Whirlwind wasn't you it was kind of like, the visible like I ideating that is happening. And kind of like growing bigger, and just not knowing how to relate with it, or what this means. Yeah, yeah. And I remember early on working with you, when I, when I did kind of identify like, oh, like, he's an artist. Now that was helpful. He's a creative. Like, if I approached you like, a pastor or professors, church,

Andy Withrow: 45:59

yeah. Doing we're doing this and this and this. And this,

Vanessa Caruso: 46:02

then I'd be totally, like, kind of caught off guard. But if I, if I thought like, Oh, he's like a mad painter, or something, filmmaker, director or something like that, then it's like, Oh, okay. That's the genre. That's, that's present here. That was helpful.

Josh Wilton: 46:20

Yeah. And it's trying to figure out ways if you're like this, I'm not manic all the time. Right, I hold on. Okay. But I do when I get the ideas, they do come so fast and so furious. But the follow through is not great. And so that's something I think is trying to protect the treasure that is in a creative person, and somebody who thinks very fast and, and widely, letting that still be a gift to a community or to a group, say staff staff. Yeah. But then not, on the other end, trying to protect other people so that it is not threatening to. Right. So where do I need to be? Especially attentive to so if we've got a staff that's high order right now, which is very good. But that means we've I've had to be and through our conversations, Vanessa, seeing the impact that I can have, and when I don't follow through, go, Oh, okay. That's not. That's not, that's outside of the bounds. It's stretching too much. Where it will break. So can I adapt? And because I'm creative, I tend to think Yeah, I can't adapt.

Vanessa Caruso: 47:36

Yeah, I feel like you adapt a lot. Good.

Josh Wilton: 47:39

Yeah. Some things I'm like, yeah, that's not changing. I'm never going to be a sunrise guy. I can't think of the details. You know, I was thinking about that, Andy, because that'll be a charge against me. And I reject it, attending to the details, that I'm not I don't attend to details I do. You can't get a video done. Without attending to details. I'm very administrative. It's just not what I like doing unless it is unless, unless it is administrating The thing that I like doing? Yeah. I'm very particular. very particular. I

Vanessa Caruso: 48:14

would say in some things.

Josh Wilton: 48:16

No, but if I don't care about it, I don't like who cares? Someone else makes the decision. I'm just so uninvested. And that's why, Vanessa, you've you've shared I mean, that there are not. Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I have to keep my attention somewhere. If the things that keep my attention. I go, oh, shoot, I need to fake it. So somebody else knows that I care about them are what? How do I trick myself to be more present? But then that's where it ties into Don't miss the moment. Right? I think that's where I've come in the last few months. Don't miss the moment. What is this moment this is attending to details and showing people I care about things I'm not that aren't just my own investment, but our investment. So I'm working on that.

Vanessa Caruso: 49:00

Yeah, I love I love the idea of a church as a mini culture and creating space, so that the artists aren't squelched, or pushed out or something like that. But that feels like such a creative process in itself to figure out how to make space for all types. And I mean, I remember watching the Good Friday, was it Good Friday, or Ash Wednesday? Probably Ash Wednesday. vigil. Yeah. And then Easter morning and thinking like, Wow, thank God, we have this, like we have you in your sweet spot with all the time and energy it takes and that we don't snuff that out. Because we I need something on an agenda that was already prepared. You know what I mean? Yeah. And the quick processing part about you in particular, as a creative person. I think that's one of the parts that's hardest for me, is just not being a quick processor or not. The same way. And so not understanding what's happening. You know, and I know like Risa is a friend of ours, and she's so different than you. I would say she's also a quick processor in a different way. And I, I have had such a hard time kind of following. So letting go of following while trusting the process just as like a companion feels like part of the invitation to doing church life together is for me, is letting go of knowing where this is heading a bit. And yeah, letting it happen.

Josh Wilton: 50:38

There is that balance of like, you need enough disruption, but enough continuity, right? And if it tilts over too much, and when you've got a group, then like, what's the range of the group? Yeah, you might have more or less range dependent, you have to adapt. And this is why it can't just be about the ideas. It can't just be about the creative person. It's got to be about what God is doing creatively within a group and within for a moment and for a season. So I think that's where we work best when we go away, usually after Easter and go, okay, what's the next year? And then we'll get comments from here or other places going. Wow, you guys are very organized and planned out. Yeah. Well, yeah. But that meant what we're like canoeing around upon Yeah. For a couple hours. And then Andy, basically, and then Andy canoeing or paddling and me just going Hey, what about this? I haven't some ideas. And and there you go. But it took a bunch of time to get to that. That big burst.

Vanessa Caruso: 51:41

Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 51:44

This has been good. Yeah. We're at time. But Josh, thanks for being on our bear with me podcast. Yeah, and thanks for Thanks for having us on your killer radio.

Josh Wilton: 51:53

Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 51:57

We'll put we'll put the images and paint links into our show notes so people can see it if they don't if they're not on the seeing the video. But yeah, any last words?

Vanessa Caruso: 52:09

To hit or no and any for you? I'll think.

Andy Withrow: 52:16

Pay attention to the details.

Vanessa Caruso: 52:19

You do this the moment

Andy Withrow: 52:20

just showing up? Don't miss the moment. Chase the light. And you say pay attention to shadows. Yeah, pay attention to the darkness. The darkness. What's happening with the darkness. It's good.

Josh Wilton: 52:30

Be and there are always things there that you cannot see. That film picks up.

Andy Withrow: 52:35

Yeah, we didn't. We didn't get to that.

Josh Wilton: 52:37

I just remember. That's the big thing. That's the part of the surprise. That was the

Andy Withrow: 52:42

surprise film picks up things that you know, that you don't see. Either by selecting on

Josh Wilton: 52:47

light or now but stem. That's definitely not not there. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 52:55

Like that. That's a good note to end on. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, guys. Thanks. And either way, you can begin next week.