Vanessa Caruso: 0:01

Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life

Andy Withrow: 0:18

Hey, Andy back already happy Lent. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 0:21

Bless it. Len, is that better?

Andy Withrow: 0:24

Bless it lent.

Vanessa Caruso: 0:25

You were just talking about how fine Ash Wednesday was. That was

Andy Withrow: 0:29

that was off the chair podcast. I was solemnly happy. Okay. No, it was. It was in reference. We had our Ash Wednesday gathering last night at the table. And we had friends from open gate friends from church of our Lord, but until a table came down, so it was just fun. It was really fun. It was fun to see all those people in one place. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 0:53

it was neat. Like a reunion. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 0:56

But it was all dark and gloomy and songs. Were rich and nice and sad.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:05

Okay. That was that was a Yeah, yeah.

Andy Withrow: 1:08

Yeah. In the best way. Okay, good Out in the best way. So, yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:12

And we're back. Yeah, we're

Andy Withrow: 1:13

back for very long.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:15

We're gonna take a little break. We tried. And that land? It's just I just found myself wanting to talk about it with someone.

Andy Withrow: 1:23

Yeah. And here we are. We're gonna talk about lent today. On this second day of Lent, for us,

Vanessa Caruso: 1:29

yes. Great. So I have some thoughts. Andy, I thought I could just share and at any point, you can just kind of interact with your own thoughts. Great. I love that. Yes. Okay. So let comes around every year. For anybody who's listening to this podcast, they probably know what Len is. But just to recap, it's the 40 day or six week period, beginning on Ash Wednesday, yesterday, and ending the day before Easter. And it began in the early church as a way to prepare for Easter. And the number 40 brings to mind Jesus's withdrawal into the desert, which happened after His baptism and before His public ministry. But there's also the 40 days and nights of flooding during Noah's time. Good one, which I call back like thinking about the Ark as a forced Lent.

Andy Withrow: 2:32

It's like a wooden box out of that before

Vanessa Caruso: 2:34

limitations you only have enough food. Yeah. And supplies for a certain amount of time. Good point. It's, it's like a wilderness experience. You're like,

Andy Withrow: 2:43

that's really fascinating, isn't it?

Vanessa Caruso: 2:45

I think there's something more there. Okay. So yeah, Jesus's 40 days in the desert is the most common association with land, but there's the 40 days and nights of flooding. There's 40 years of Israelites wandering in the desert. And in each case, these 40 represent a journey of temptation, suffering, or wandering before liberation, new life or deliverance, or public ministry. Yeah. Isn't that cool?

Andy Withrow: 3:13

Yeah. I was just thinking how, in one of at least one of the versions I think of the of Jesus temptation story, it says he was with the wild animals.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:24

Yes, it does. That's so true. Is that reminding you of the wilderness? The Israelites time in the wilderness?

Andy Withrow: 3:32

No. Oh, it's reminding me of the 40 days Shut up in the ark. Oh, my gosh. With a bunch of animals. Yes. Anyway, that another podcast, okay. Yeah. So sometimes, yeah, sometimes we'll unpack the connections.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:47

I bet there are more like the dove knows,

Andy Withrow: 3:54

we better stop okay, this will get hijacked.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:59

Okay. Lens means spring. So it derives from our word meaning long. Here in the northern hemisphere, it does not feel like spring. But as we move towards Easter, it will start to so one way to understand that depending on where you live is that the days are lengthening. In Latin. The word Lent means slowly. So whether we're talking about to lengthen or to slow us down, that's a really great clue for me about what latent lent means. It kind of stretches us in some different ways, or it slows us down. I like to think of Lent, kind of loosening our grasp on some things. Some of our compulsions or our habits are things that we take for granted. So when I think of Lent as like stretch or lengthen, I think it's making space between me and some of my habits are composed Oceans, or when I think of Lent as slow, I'm thinking it's waking me up to what I can take for granted. And it's like, it's a season of intentionality. So it's right kind of in the heart of winter here for us, in North America, and it's an opportunity to grow spiritually in a similar way that we might plant seeds in a in a month or two, that also hopefully can grow and bloom after Easter. What do you think about all that?

Andy Withrow: 5:39

Yeah, it's it's overlapping with some of the things I've been thinking about with land as well. Associating Lent with the desert. Just in just in the 40 days of, of Jesus being in the desert, as you mentioned. And, and and thinking about and I think I shared this on an episode or two ago about Thomas Merton reading through his contemplative prayer. I might have read a little bit from it, but it was just that opening line of the desert is the climate where prayer can flower, right. And so thinking of Lent, the season of Lent in the Christian calendar, the church calendar, is kind of to the rest of the year like a desert is to a larger ecosystem. And Thomas Merton's reflection on the desert is an invitation for prayer to flower, we're away from the securities of the city, or the securities of our technology, in the comforts of all those things tie into this idea. It helped, it helped me just kind of give a bit of a framework for that. Slowing down that a bit of finding a bit of critical distance between something that I rely on a lot. Yeah. Which could be Oh, bunch of different things. Right. So that's why that's where it kind of that tradition of giving up something for Lent comes it's not just something we do, because that's what everyone does, or what's always on there's actually some, some wisdom and connection behind it of this is a season a unique season two. Just didn't, sir. Give that space.

Vanessa Caruso: 7:29

Yeah, that's beautiful to think of the desert as outside of the city. Like it's, there's that critical distance from the noise, the status quo, the routines, the agendas. Yeah. And it's also sparse, like I think of a desert is more sparse. Yeah. Than a city. So there's, there's like a some kind of forced simplicity, that you're talking about. Kind of giving some space for this flower to bloom that might only bloom in the desert. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 8:04

Yeah, and I think the the idea of Lent, or the obser, observing of Lent, in, maybe in the North American church has been on some parts of it has sort of been not celebrated as much because of, it's a bit of a, it can be seen as a bit of a downer, yes. Maybe not as easily promotable as other more festive times of the year. Right. And but it's really the wisdom of the tradition that has put it in there every year, for those who follow Jesus, because that's actually following Jesus into the desert or into this confrontation with the dark parts of life in the world. And so this is an invitation to actually follow in a meaningful way.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:04

I love that. So that reminds me of the fasting portion of Lent, like following Jesus into this darker period of his life and identifying with him in it. It reminds me of some of the fasting material you that you and I have talked about, because a few years ago, you and I both fasted food through on Fridays, during Lent. A couple of years ago. Yeah, I don't think it was last year, but maybe the year before that. And there is this tradition of, of fasting and Lent, fasting almsgiving. Justice, I think these are all some of the penitence, repentance. These are some of the traditional ideas behind Lent. And I remember this is a side note but about ashes. I remember reading that there was a tradition of sitting and ashes And that's what the word Cinderella means. It's a woman who sits in ashes. And it was, it was a way of saying, there are times in our life, that we come to terms with our mortality with our finitude with the precarity of existence. So that idea in the Bible of sackcloth and ashes, it's, it's those times when we, you know, kind of sit with what has remained after a fire has burned up what we know or what we love. So, this tradition of fasting one of my favorite quotes for around fasting is from Ronald roll Heiser. And what does he say, never written down here. Oh, in liturgical terms, we fast before we feast. In our time, we struggle with such paradoxes. Many of our feasts fall flat, because there has been no previous fast. And that has been so true for me, like I snack all day long. I don't, I am so accustomed to getting what I want, when I want it. Not just with food, but food is just like a very daily way for me to live out that kind of constant satiation I have, which is, I know, so privileged, you know, that things are at my fingertips access to information is that my fingertips, snacks are at my fingertips, cravings are at my fingertips. So I like the idea of trusting going back to what you said about this being a gloomy time of year, kind of trusting that it's an important time of year to trust that are, many of our feasts do fall flat, because we don't, right, many of us don't know what it's like to go without, or to have that critical distance between what we think we need, what we actually need. So that's so compelling to me about whatever kind of fast lent might present, whether it is physical, food related, or something else, which we can talk about in a little bit. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 12:14

Yeah. It made me think of this a lot of my own personal reflection, that same idea of just being in a time and place where it's so easy to get all our needs and wants met pretty quickly. Yeah. And, and, and I liked that meeting. But in the, in the setting of the purpose of Lent, which I think in part is to follow Jesus into the desert to follow Jesus into some of the dark parts of his life and ministry in the, in the, in the world. That those excesses, yeah, can be a way of covering up that darkness, yes, denying it, of escaping it. Whether that's from whether that's snacking all day, or whether that's, you know, whatever, whatever thing helps fill or distract me, yeah. And land is an opportunity to put some of those things away to open ourselves up to the reality of, of life in its imperfections, and its its brokenness, and its hardness, and offer to gather those things up and offer them to God. And that's the invitation of land, I think, is to take the darkness and brokenness of the world in our life seriously, and, and bring them into the setting of worship together. I love that, which is counterintuitive, maybe for us, depending on how we grew up, or how our theology but that's the like me that's the Psalms that's the whole Bible is bringing is gathering the whole self to God and the dark parts so that he can do something with them. But our I think our tendency or intuition or reaction is to kind of cover those up Yeah, or deny those or ignore those or to put those at a distance from ourselves instead of being exposed to them and taking them seriously. And seeing and trusting that God has something good and strong enough to do something about them.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:30

So beautiful. I love the like, gathering like you're doing that you people can't see it, but you're like doing that with your hands like this gathering motion and bringing it into our worship. That's such a beautiful idea. It reminds me of the Pascal mystery like I think of the very short version of the Pascal mystery is life, death life. And just wanting to skip how many how much I want to skip kind of the passage through the The death part. And what you're saying is making me think, no, what if we take some time every year to trust that all that stuff that's associated with death, pain, violence, mortality, brokenness, sin. And we gather that up, it sounds like an offering, which is the counterintuitive part. It reminds me too, that I read an article about Ramadan, because Muslims do 40 days of fasting during Ramadan. And they don't eat or drink I, if I understand correctly, from dawn until dusk, so depending on where you live in the world, that could be like 6am to 8pm. Yeah, no water, no drinking, or eating during the day, so you can eat before and then after. So I read an interview with Lisa Sharon Harper, who's this great Christian activist in Philadelphia, with an imam. And he talked about saying that the blessing that they give for Ramadan translates to a generous Ramadan. Because they trust that their spiritual bounty from this season of darkness of withdrawal of less and so that's what I hear you talking about, like trusting that there's a spiritual bounty and gather up all this stuff. That's hard to face.

Andy Withrow: 16:27

Yeah. And trusting the I'm hung up on the Lord's Prayer, because that's what we're doing for Lent and sort of been in but trusting that God is going to make the kingdom of this world in it will become the kingdom of God. So that means all the dark places have to be addressed. All the injustice have to be addressed and accounted for and transformed. And so if gotten this sense of both in connection to the Lord's Prayer and to learn is that part of our Christian vocation or work is to see and name the dark places and bring them before our God in prayer. And trust in that maybe the offering sincerity he will receive those in trance, do something with them. Yeah. And and I think when for those of us who have grown up maybe in a tradition that did not hit lent very well, or Ash Wednesday, or Good Friday, and those sorts of things. I think for people who come like to the table, for example, at a Ash Wednesday or Good Friday service, there's a new thing that happens like the the the power and the connection you can feel when you bring mourning as a act of worship is counterintuitive, because we tend we can tend to associate worship with positive feelings. Yeah, connection to God with positive feelings. But the invitation is like no Take, take the other things too. And bring them in have that be a space where God also interacts and connects and love it. And then you've got a whole nother realm, a lot of life that can now be entered into this relationship and into this worship and into this thing we call the Christian life. A lot of life a lot of life. You don't kindergarten and it's counterintuitive. Stop covering all that stuff up. Yeah. And just allow it to be and sit with it. And have that be an aspect of our worship and trust.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:36

Yeah. Wow. I already am grateful for this conversation as we head into the next six weeks. Okay, let's just keep going. And then and keep talking. A quote, like, you know, I get a newsletter from Abbey of the arts, Christine Valters painter. And she said that this Lent, she's, you know, offering this invitation to a series of non physical fast, where we explore what it means to fast from multitasking, anxiety, rushing, holding it all together, planning and certainty. And as community they're going to embrace presence, abundance, slowness, tenderness, unfolding, and mystery. So that was just like, you know, I read that a few days ago in my email inbox and just that was evocative to me, like, wow, as a community. That's how they've prepared to engage leant together like they've named some things that are just part there in Ireland, you know, that are just like part of their everyday lives that they're going to do together. And that's one of the things I appreciate about Len is that it's not a season where we just kind of observe our generic brokenness and and generic darkness, but we, the invitation is to bring it a little bit closer to home and to customize, customize the lens journey for ourselves. So, over the years, I've just loved kind of collecting these creative fasts that people do, or creative additions that they make to their, to their lives, because we're all just so different. So something that might be a virtue for me might be advice for somebody else, you know, a go to example is that I tend to want to avoid conflict. Not everybody is wired like that. So engaging intentionally, during Lent with like, I'm not going to avoid conflict, you know, I'm not gonna not do something because my son might get mad at me, or I'm not gonna sidestep a conversation that I have like opinions about because I just don't want to deal with it. Whereas someone else, that might be more of a vise, they might go to conflict, right, way too easily and kind of reframing or listening or biting their tongue might be like a great discipline for them. Yeah. So I love that customization aspect of Lent that we can bring it closer to home. So I have a few of my favorite ideas. But I want to give you a chance to respond to any

Andy Withrow: 21:18

Yeah, no. Well, I was thinking about how I mean, it makes sense that we're all different. We're all individuals. Yeah. God has space for each of those in that discernment plays a role in, in our following, following God are following Jesus into the desert to say, well, what is it that God is, is saying, look, take a look at this thing. And yeah, let's, let's put some critical distance between you in that thing. And, oh, shoot, I had another thought it just flew away from

Vanessa Caruso: 21:52

me. Was it about like, conflict or something? Because, you

Andy Withrow: 21:55

know, I might, I might certainly add to it if it comes up. But that was about it. Well, that was kind of the thing.

Vanessa Caruso: 22:02

The customization. So here are some of my, that was a nice customization.

Andy Withrow: 22:07

So part, it seems to me that part of the desert experience. I know, we're talking metaphorically here and like you could literally go out to a desert, be careful, make plans, but this space giving slowing down giving even critical space to recalibrate our senses to be become aware of what are the things that I'm over dependent on or even just dependent on that just need a little bit of a distance or that break or that putting offering that before? Before God? Yeah, sort of thing. Seems like that's got to be a piece of, of even the Jesus 40 days in the desert of what did he like? What did he see that? Yes, that that time afforded him? Right?

Vanessa Caruso: 23:00

Yes. That's so good. I love recalibrating our senses. And you keep using the word critical, which I think is it's like critical thinking not critical as a negative, but there's like this focus,

Andy Withrow: 23:13

and wasn't like yeah, go distance is a an important distance. Yeah. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 23:20

yeah, it's measured. It's like what a critical distance is kind of like, it's not vague. It's not generic. Okay, so that's real, congruent with what I've what excites me. So some of the some of the fasts or additions that I've liked over the years, a friend of ours gave up colorful clothing. So she just wore like black, beige and gray or something. And she's an Her style is part of her identity. And so she wanted to see what it would be like to put some critical distance between her and something she does every day, which is like, figure out the great thing she's going to wear. I have a friend this year doing the artists way for Lent, which is that really amazing creativity workbook. And there's a Christian version called the artists rural that I've done, which is beautiful. And it's like, every day there are little assignments to do. So that's a fun one. One I'm famous for have lent one right, my own in my own little world is that to give applying when you're freelance. That's right. And that was really rich. Not that I stopped lying completely. But I became aware of all the times that I wasn't telling the full truth, and nothing about the truth. Yeah. And so that was,

Andy Withrow: 24:44

yeah, retinas like this was less about blatant lies, and more about how you would maybe twist things.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:50

Yeah. Or avoid telling the truth or exaggerate or underplay like it just opened up the whole world of honesty to me. It wasn't so good. I can wait. It was like, Ooh, there's a there's a big field here. I was not successful at it at all early on. So instead, I changed my lying fast to every time. I feel like I didn't tell the whole truth or I held back. I'm gonna write about it that night and just note what happened. And then I'm gonna look for themes like what situations and environments kind of bring out that my yes is not always yes, I know is not always. One that people have responded to me about I put it on my guide is fantasizing or daydreaming. That's the I haven't ever tried that. But I've had some friends who say like, Whoa, I spent a lot of my time kind of in my head, like imagining scenarios or thinking about the future or replaying something in the past. If I tried to actually kind of bookmark that every time it happened, kind of like an centering prayer, where you just like return, you're like, Oh, there I am, again, not going to do that for six weeks. Not gonna think about it. That seems fruitful for people. Multitasking, I don't even want to do it. It sounds too inefficient. Like to not listen to a podcast while doing the dishes. Oh, to do one thing at a time and not try to kill two birds with one stone just goes against my sensibilities in I think it would be very spiritual. And would would give me a lot of data. But it sounds actually too hard to me. And that it would just grate on me that I can't

Andy Withrow: 26:32

like you know, listen to some podcast right now. What do you think can be listened to the bear with me cod podcast, right? Well, I wash my dishes, but I could see that'd be hard

Vanessa Caruso: 26:40

and to just listen to the podcast without doing anything else. What a waste of time is what comes to mind. But what I told a friend that and she was like, that's the death grip of capitalism. Are you interested that some thinking that okay, neighborly presence, I think that'd be a really cool lens addition is I am just going to have margins around my day. And I'm going to engage with my neighbor's and and just focus on that for six weeks. Yeah. Trying out the Sabbath. Like being intentional, like one day a week, six times this season, I'm going to aim for a Sabbath and see what I learned from it. And then there's two more that, okay, I'll just finish them. And know by lent of a friend doing this through the Ignatian Solidarity Network. I'll include the link in the notes because you could if anyone is interested in it, you could start right now. They just set it up so well, they have like, Okay, what would it look like to refrain from buying something that we just don't feel totally free around, whether it's like a cup of coffee a couple times a week out at a coffee shop, or some people are buying No, not buying any non essentials for six weeks, and there's this whole community around it, you get like these daily things, you signed something, you state your intention, it's just a really well done kind of challenge. So that one feels really interesting to me. And then another this is my last idea. My another group transforming center with Ruth Haley Barton is doing a just lent. So a lent focused on justice. Like it's something that we a lot of us say we want to grow in, we want to do more work around we want to be more intentional about and then we never get around to it or we don't as much as we want to. So she's just like, let's do it. And I've liked that in the past thinking about, yeah, all of the anti racism work that's available to me to do you know, what if lead was a time where I just said that I'm going to do that work? Yeah, I'm going to go to some of the recovering from white conditioning meetings, which are basically a for anybody with white privilege. I'm going to focus on that. I'm going to go through the white fragility workbook, and I'm going to I'm going to do the work. So those are some of my favorite ideas. The no buy and or the Justice oriented.

Andy Withrow: 29:08

Yeah, those are great. I've made me think of the problem I have with Lent. similar problem to New Year's resolutions, okay, is that it's in my nature to constantly want to reform. Yes. And so I'm always I'm thinking of Lent things out of season, the way that I want to do life differently. And so when I get there, it's but I think I'm how, like even just the things we've talked about before it's helping me see this as a unique season to do something with a specific focus. But anyway, this is something that had come up to me a few weeks ago that was not necessarily wasn't congruent with like wasn't because of Lent. But but just looking people in the eye I? Yeah, I mean, even not, not like when I'm people I know that I talked to because I usually do that, just in case people are thinking things about, Okay, talk to people, but like, just on the street oh look like, which I often don't do because it's like, it can be awkward or I'm thinking about things or I'm not, you know, but just looking people in the eye, which, if we make eye contact that usually involves us, like, gonna not gonna not smile. So I have to say that one. It's just like, looking people in the eye more as I'm passing by and just being front just being generally friendly or Wow, to people.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:32

Yeah. That's so great. Have you tried that? Have you been doing it? Have you noticed that you do smile more that people make eye contact?

Andy Withrow: 30:40

Yes. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's and I don't have a lot of data, because it is, like, coincidentally with Lenovo. I think it was just like last week. Yeah. So it's pretty, it's a pretty, pretty new thing.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:54

Okay, great point about the new year's resolutions, and that you're someone who always wants to reform. And so lent just sometimes can feel like an excuse to like, try to self actualize, or like self help time, like, Ooh, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. But it isn't that. I think that's a real legitimate concern to bring to let like, Wait, what is this for? Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 31:21

Yeah. But like the, I guess, with engaging the spiritual life, engaging the Christian life. Maybe it's just that it's the culture that we're in the time and space that we're in. But I constantly feel it, I constantly feel the rush, and then the need to keep up or to catch up or to multitask or to, or to run with anxiety. Yeah. So I feel like that's a year round struggle for me. Yes, that isn't unique to Lent. You're so and so I feel like that's where I'm always like, trying to. How do I slow down? How do I engage in other practice, and maybe that's just because of the world we live in, that's appropriate that that's a year round struggle. And maybe it lends a special season and opportunity to, to try something new, or do something with it kind of with a unique purpose and focus of, of, of connecting in the ways that we've been talking about? Yeah, but I know, like, I know, some people will listen and get overwhelmed with your list. Yeah. And your point is not do all these things. It's like, these are just ideas, it's probably smart to pick one. And to pick one that seems fairly accessible. And you could be maybe excited about even like, Okay, I'm going to do this one thing for Lent. Yeah, because I feel like one is kind of enough. It is often and like, let that be your thing that helps you slow down that helps you disconnect in some way so that you can connect in other ways. Yeah, and find some excitement and freedom and even fun. Yeah. And for for Lent,

Vanessa Caruso: 32:57

way to bring it around. I agree. You reminded me that what's unique about lent versus all year round, just trying to slow down and be less anxious is that a community is doing it together. So it's totally appropriate and even helpful to ask a friend. Yeah, halfway through like, Hey, how's it going?

Andy Withrow: 33:18

Right? That you find maybe what if you can find one other person who might be in on even during the same kind of Yeah, change or fast or, or practice that you're doing? Yeah, just so you have someone to kind of connect with and talk to about it.

Vanessa Caruso: 33:33

Yeah. So with that said, anything you're kind of intentionally doing

Andy Withrow: 33:39

this year? Okay. Well, so yes. Okay. But accidentally, because it just happened to coincide with mine. I could add that looking people in the eye want. Yeah, you could realizing I'm doing too, but I was starting to feel like I was drinking too much beer. Okay. Yeah. Specifically, at home. And the problem is, it's kind of like anything else. If it was soda pop, it would be sort of, like whatever thing that yeah, specifically around drinking. Some preferred kind of drink. If it's in the fridge, and it's at home, and it's an I'm at home at you know, in the evening. It's there. And it's easy. Yes. And so it's just habit, and then it builds and builds and builds. So I was noticing, as long as he wasn't sleeping, as well as I wasn't feeling as good or as rested. So I felt like those things were connected. Yeah. And so that kind of gave me a sense of okay, maybe a bit of overdependence here and I don't want to do that. So it's not a total fast. It's a weekends. Yeah. And if it's if you're going out, yeah, but, but for me, specifically, it's just having a, you know, a six pack in the fridge. Yeah. During the rest of the week, where it's like it's always available to always available thing. I now have a different one. It's like okay, let's just not have it in the fridge during the week. Yeah, that's that's my that's my fast that's a very special Have no beer in the fridge during the workweek.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:03

Yeah, that's it. Okay. So I love the whole weekday thing with Lent because I forget what it's called. But Sunday's are supposed to be a reprieve from whatever fast we do.

Andy Withrow: 35:15

And these are feast days and fasters. They're not included in the 40 days of Lent, right. That's why we 46 days between Wednesday and Easter.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:24

So I think that's a great idea to do things that just happened during the week where there is a once a week or twice a week or whatever, like, a break from that, because I think it does develop in us this more long term rhythm of fasting and feasting. Like which Sunday is supposed to be for us, you know, at worship. And with a Sabbath. It's supposed to be like this renewal point in the week. Last year, as a family, we did no alcohol during the week, and no takeout food, you know, like restaurant type food. And so Fridays were our feast Fridays, and they were like, it was like a little feast Sunday. And it was like a mini Easter every week where we like loved the beer and the big wheel burger that we'd have on Fridays. So I think that's a great rhythm for lunch or anything like that. Yeah. Anything else? You're doing? Eye contact?

Andy Withrow: 36:21

Eye contact.

Vanessa Caruso: 36:22

No beer in the fridge during the weekdays? Yeah, yeah. What I wanted to do was alcohol and sugar because I have a friend. And those are two things. She's doing some like, Oh, I could do it with her. And then we could talk about it. Accountability. I did give up alcohol last year, and it was good for me to do that. And like the first taste of wine after the battle special. Yes. Whereas I just got I had grown accustomed to I didn't appreciate it the way I see. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So it kind of recalibrates our senses in that way. Robert Capone, keep on keepin on, come on is like the mom.

Andy Withrow: 37:05

Yeah, brother of alcopop. Yeah, no,

Vanessa Caruso: 37:07

you know that amazing prayer. Oh, Lord, refresh our sensibilities Give us this day our daily taste, restore us to soups that spoons will not sink in and sauces, which are never the same twice. Take away our fear of fat and make us glad of the oil, which ran down Aaron's beard, give us pasta with 100 fillings and rice and 1000 variations and above all, give us the grace to live as true humans too fast till we come to a refreshed sense of what we have. And then to dine gratefully. On all that comes to hand. How nice amazing is that? So like giving up beer and alcohol or sugar might refresh our sensibilities and restore us to daily tastes and make our feasts that much, much more powerful. But I'm not giving up alcohol or sugar. Do you know why? Why Stephen was like, that's not what I think you should give up. He was like, I think it should be a family decision because I'm gonna be irritable. Because he told me he was like, I'm not up for that. I'm not for six weeks of you like complaining. And like being irritable and tired and like, Yeah, or like, you know, itching for like, what's because I have sweets every night. Okay, now like, so I'm going to be like, anxious. He was like, No. And I was like, legitimate, like, this shouldn't be a personal decision. Interesting. So I said, What do you think? So that's another idea is have a significant other best friend or roommate suggest good idea. That's like it. It feels like a humble posture or a submissive one to say like, what do you think I shouldn't do? Yeah, he suggested I should stop work at some point each day. Like five or six or seven?

Andy Withrow: 39:00

Well, it's interesting, because this is pointing to what other people are noticing about you that you live with. Yes. And I was like, No. Valuable. Yeah. Interesting. So you were like, No, it's too hard. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 39:10

Okay. I was like, it's not realistic is too hard and doesn't feel fun. Yeah, he was like, That's my point, Mike, because you never stop. Yeah, I wonder what would happen if you actually stopped? So I'm going to do it. So you are doing it? Yeah. What time do you think is reasonable? Wait, what did he say? Five six or 7pm to not do any more work after those hours

Andy Withrow: 39:33

work after that? Maybe six? I think reasonable. Yeah, cuz the entire hour Yeah. And then after dinner, let's let's not do work. Let's relax. Let's play catch up.

Vanessa Caruso: 39:43

Like so. That means no computer after six. Yeah. And we have a hamster

Andy Withrow: 39:50

that I can play hamster needs attention. She's

Vanessa Caruso: 39:53

nocturnal. So 6pm 6am is her hour.

Andy Withrow: 39:56

Perfect. What do you think Leo? Is this a good day? Yeah. Yeah, Leo's into.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:04

I do what? What says My nine year old sort of too much says are you at nine? Oh, see I was gonna give up alcohol on sweets and that felt like grittier to me. And then my family is like, No, you work too much stop.

Andy Withrow: 40:18

Because they're like, Oh, well, you you're going to be working late, and you're not going to have your sweets and your alcohol to help.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:23

It's part of that. I need like a reward. Yeah, to keep working. Yeah, I know someone else who gave up caffeine. I mean, he's weaning himself. But he says it's not about the caffeine as much as it is his cycle of productivity. Like he says he thinks his energy is like, at a seven he was like, and I aim for an energy level at a 10, which is the caffeine helps me get there. He was like, I think I'm actually my energy levels more at six this season in life. So how do I recalibrate and he was like, I have to get rid of caffeine in order to do that, because I'm, I'm like the name or hamster panda on her wheel. Just like it's like the cycle that you're like, got to do more. Gotta do more. So he's cutting it down at the base of the tree.

Andy Withrow: 41:09

Okay, so six o'clock 6pm. Tonight, you're done. Exciting.

Vanessa Caruso: 41:15

Okay, let's do to see what we learned.

Andy Withrow: 41:21

Okay, better pay attention to. Yeah, that's probably the key. It isn't what happens, okay.

Vanessa Caruso: 41:26

And note if you if you fail, which we all will or maybe not depends on what you're doing. Just just make a note of it. No record. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 41:34

That's part of the data. That's part of the experience, like okay, to learn, you know, why did this happen? Great. Thanks, Andy. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad we did this. Detail. Are we are we back on? What are we? I think so. We're gonna be back on Yeah. Okay. So maybe in a couple of weeks, we'll do this again.

Vanessa Caruso: 41:50

We'll say Lord's Prayer. Sounds like a fun, do some LORD's Prayer stuff. That'll be really good.

Andy Withrow: 41:56

Okay, all right. Well, we missed you, everybody. It's we're glad to be back. We'll see you next time. Bye.