Vanessa Caruso: 0:01

Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life

Andy Withrow: 0:17

All right, Ron. Great. And it's 2023 It is. Yeah. This is our first one of 2023. Wow, it's

Vanessa Caruso: 0:25

towards the end of the month. Yeah. Cool.

Andy Withrow: 0:29

Yeah. All right. We're back. Yeah, that matters now. And we're the we're gonna finish the long anticipated long expected, long awaited. I picture people waiting by their relative podcast platforms for this episode. Part two, right, part two of intro to spiritual direction. Yes. Featuring Vanessa Caruso.

Vanessa Caruso: 0:52

Thank you for being so concerned about bringing this to completion, Andy. I didn't imagine people refreshing their podcast.

Andy Withrow: 1:01

Positive that's what's happening. Okay, well, we very much relieved to hear it is downloaded. Listen to this episode. Right. So where are we? You were listening to the part one on the way in this morning? Yeah. So recap for us what, where we're at and what we need to do next. Great.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:18

So part one about spiritual direction was an intro to spiritual direction. And this one, I wanted to make a little bit more about the logistics like how do I find a spiritual director? And what can I expect in a spiritual direction, relationship or session in particular? So just to recap, spiritual direction, the name is a little bit problematic the term just because it sounds like you're going to get direction, like, what should I do? Should I go back to college? Or should I quit my job?

Andy Withrow: 1:53

A lot of people want to know those kinds of things they do might be disappointed when they go to Yeah, and they don't get the direction. Don't

Vanessa Caruso: 1:58

get that advice, or the like, do this, right. So not the most helpful term may, especially

Andy Withrow: 2:05

in our day and age where there's too many options.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:08

There's Andy, there's so many options, so many good. Go to a spiritual director, they're not going to tell me what to do now, unfortunately. Okay. So doing a spiritual direction is helping someone pay attention to God's personal communication to them.

Andy Withrow: 2:24

So God can tell him a physical so let's go back to college.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:27

Yes. And that's a spiritual action as far as making that space in your schedule. Okay. All right, to to start putting the clues together, about how God is leading you. What God's opening up for you. Why are you smiling? Because

Andy Withrow: 2:43

I was picturing myself, like, being a new kind of spiritual direction that just people come and pay. And I tell them exactly what

Vanessa Caruso: 2:50

it would be amazing.

Andy Withrow: 2:52

Like people would some people would love that, oh, that's what they need. You know,

Vanessa Caruso: 2:55

Andy, I actually think that would be a great, there should be like, one week of the month, where spiritual directors are just like, eff it. I'm just gonna, like, be as honest as possible. This is

Andy Withrow: 3:07

what you need to do. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But that's not that might be what people are wanting, yes, or what people are needing,

Vanessa Caruso: 3:16

right. And actually, in long term, it's really empowering to be able to find that we have a wisdom within us from the Holy Spirit, about what to do in our lives. So it's like that teach a person to fish versus fishing for them

Andy Withrow: 3:37

personally, to LISTEN to the Spirit. Yeah. And act. It needs

Vanessa Caruso: 3:41

space and time, though. That's something we're short on as people right now. You know, so that hour a month, it seems like a lot to like pay to go talk to someone about your relationship with God. At the end of the day, 60 minutes a month, sometimes is the most that you actually pause and open and, and admit and talk about what's really going on. So spiritual direction is, is about moving from just talking about God or thinking about God or all those one days, one day, I'll have a meditation practice one day, I'll do this or that it's it's really a space to experience God and to reflect on our experience of God in everyday life.

Andy Withrow: 4:32

So maybe if you're someone who has an idea of engaging the spiritual disciplines, for example, like I want to be better at listening to hearing recognizing, hearing and listening to God's voice in my life. Yeah, but maybe for whatever reason, the bar of beginning that practice really knowing how to start, but if you set aside time in your calendar and you put a little bit of money aside, you're putting resources there, then you're at least is guaranteeing one hour a month? Yes. Or whatever the rhythm is? Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna learn from someone else. How to begin to do some of these practices?

Vanessa Caruso: 5:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of baseline, if, if there's nothing else, there's that, but the nature of it is that, you know, you, you, you think about what came up in that spiritual direction session for the rest of the month. I love doing special direction in person because the drive to or the walk to direction appointment and the walker drive or bike home from that appointment, that like integrating time. And that reflection time is just so valuable. So that's even better than zoom, where you can like be doing something and then a minute later, you can log on. And then the minute after you log off, you like move on to your email. So just setting aside that time, it's kind of like an hour and a half in Victoria, to have an hour long session. 15 minutes there, 15 minutes back, that does a lot for the rest of the week, which can change the month in terms of your awareness of God in in your true real, everyday life. Yeah. So that's why people might want to go is to reflect on their experience of God in everyday life.

Andy Withrow: 6:22

Okay, so you've recapped where we are. Now, I think you wanted to talk about a couple of things, including, how do you find? How do you go about beginning to find a spiritual director?

Vanessa Caruso: 6:34

Yeah, I have a sense that people are curious about spiritual direction, but don't know where to start. So that if you're listening, and you're interested, or you have a friend who meets with a spiritual director, and you're like, Hmm, you know, I didn't used to feel a desire for that. But for some reason, I'm kind of drawn to it. But I don't know where to start. Here are some good places to start. One would be to pray about it, not just because that's the Christian answer. But to actually just name out loud or in writing, while you're driving. Or, right now, when you're thinking about it, like God, I do want something more, and I don't know where to start, I'm opening myself up to you to help me find a way to meet with one, or, you know, I just I want to meet with one and I might want to meet with the right one for me. So I'm admitting that to you that desire. So that's a great place to start even doing that is kind of doing something. And then asking someone who might know spiritual directors would be the next place. So a friend that meets with one a pastor, every pastor has a sense of people who are either like spiritual directors, or

Andy Withrow: 7:54

would I know at least one spiritual director, do you? Yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 7:57

And then that spiritual director that you know, can help find them, refer them to someone who might be a good fit. So that's the best way is just like talk to someone you know, who meets with one or knows one. And then know that contacting that spiritual director doesn't mean you have to meet with them. There's always a consultation, like a phone call, or zoom, or a coffee meeting, where you get to know each other and the spiritual director will be happy to connect you with someone who might be a better fit, whether that's a different gender, a different faith, tradition, or denomination, someone who may be you to know each other a bit. And so it would be better for the person to meet with someone kind of outside your circle. So they can help refer you to that. But there's also these networks. So there's like the directors of color network. There's the transforming center in Chicago has a great referral list. So on my website, but I can post them to bear with me, there are links to some of these networks, you know, you can you can have like an evangelical Network of Spiritual directors. And then if you're, especially if you're willing to meet over zoom, you can definitely do your research and see who seems like they might be a good fit for me. So that's another way to go.

Andy Withrow: 9:17

Okay, so you got some links in our in our definitely comment section or notes section on the podcast to get people started. Or to ask around word of mouth with a pastor or someone you trust or a friend? Yeah. Great.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:32

Great. And then a few of the logistics. So yeah, you'll definitely want like a meeting with the potential director, whether that's over the phone, zoom or in person. And one thing to look for is to see if they did any training and spiritual direction if they if they carry that title. They probably did. But I think that's important. And part of it is that that means that they abide by a code of ethics, and probably that they're in a regular form of supervision, which means there's another pair of eyes on their ministry of spiritual direction. So those are some of the professional attributes that I that I find important. So that was wise. Yeah, those are some, a few things to consider. And

Andy Withrow: 10:23

like, someone just opening up once a month and telling people what to do, for example,

Vanessa Caruso: 10:29

yeah. Like what you want to avoid that? Yeah, unless, I don't know, I'd be curious to do that with you.

Andy Withrow: 10:35

I'll try it, we'll try it, we'll see what comes up.

Vanessa Caruso: 10:38

We should do an Ask me anything, or not. Okay, so, but some of the like, nuts and bolts, the typical rhythm of spiritual direction is once a month, for an hour. There's typically a covenant to sign. A lot of directors call them covenants rather than contracts. But it's a description of what spiritual direction is about. And it names some of the the typical boundaries of spiritual direction, the fee, the expectations in terms of communication, if you have a therapist, and then names the mandated reporting, as a lay minister, which spiritual directors are. So that's one thing to pay attention to, in spiritual direction is that there is a lot of overlap with therapy or counseling. But most spiritual directors aren't trained in that. So they'll want to know if you do meet with one. And if you don't meet with one, and if it, it seems like they're, you might be benefited from meeting with one, that's something that they might ask about or bring up, in addition, but it's not a replacement for counseling. That all makes sense, I'm guessing, a typical fee. So some spiritual directors don't charge which is really beautiful. Because it's understood as a charism of the spirit, like being someone who can accompany you to become your true self in God and respond with creative, courageous integrity to God's call on your life. So people are like, I'm not charging money for that. And so you definitely can find people who don't most, I would say, have a sliding scale. So between 40 and 80, I would think is a typical amount per session. Yeah, per session. So once a month, yeah, and that would be per hour. And then some just have a standalone fee. But you can always ask about whether there's a sliding scale and leave it up to them to decide that. Regular, what does a typical session entail? I might have said this in the other one, but it looks from the outside of someone who's watching, it would look like a conversation between two people, for sure. Except there is more space for silence. So they're, you know, the direct D sometimes will have their eyes closed and kind of be going inside to check in with God and themselves about whatever it is they're talking about. So there's all these invitations to pause in the session,

Andy Withrow: 13:18

when you're learning to listen. Yes to do the practice that. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 13:24

So it looks like a normal conversation except for that contemplative part. And then the other main part is the evocative questions. So instead of like, should I go back to school? Or should I stick with my job? Instead of kind of answering that or problem solving that the director would ask questions that help you explore more? where God is leading you in that area?

Andy Withrow: 13:55

Yeah. Seems like a dimension of it is just like a little bit of in the best way, like a little bit of hand holding as you pay attention to your own questions, thoughts, feelings about things? Because I think a lot of us lack confidence to think that they mean anything. Yeah, definitely. It's just the chaos of feelings inside and contradictory desires and stuff. But having someone come alongside and give credence like, no, no, pay attention to that. What's that saying about what you want or what you need? Or what maybe what God's speaking to you or clarifying things? Can I think, maybe in the early stages of our spiritual development be really helpful.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:34

It's some it's totally that hand holding is kind of a nice idea. You don't actually hold hands that piece, you know,

Andy Withrow: 14:43

I'm sure there's probably in the world of spiritual direction. I bet somebody somewhere you're right,

Vanessa Caruso: 14:48

like on a bench maybe. But otherwise,

Andy Withrow: 14:52

probably not typical. Yeah. No, it's not. Don't expect that.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:55

No, sometimes I say a lot in a spiritual direction session. As a director, you Sometimes they say very little, because just a person having space to hear themselves, you know, like, I generally leave a good pause after someone says something, just to see if there's more and often, they'll keep talking. They'll Yeah. And they'll keep going, you know. But sometimes they do interrupt. Let's say they're like, keep going in so many directions. And it's like, well, we're going to cover a lot of ground, but not necessarily go deeper into this thing that seemed like it was pretty important. Like you sounded like you got a little bit choked up. When you named that, can we go back to that? So that's the directing part is like, I'm going to try to discern what, what seems important to you and what you were,

Andy Withrow: 15:49

like, learning and take ourselves more seriously. I love that out of this seems like, yeah, kind of getting started with this.

Vanessa Caruso: 15:59

Yeah. So the last thing would be, what do you talk about? What do you bring?

Andy Withrow: 16:05

What do you talk about?

Vanessa Caruso: 16:07

So you talk about anything that's going on in your life, I mean, you can be a little bit more direct about it. And, you know, keep a journal or a notepad, the week before spiritual direction, a couple days before your first spiritual direction, appointment. And just take notes of some of the honest things you find yourself thinking about wondering about and feeling, you could jot down dreams that you have, as you have them, you know, like, wow, that was a weird dream, I don't know what I'm gonna do with that. And anything about your awareness of God in everyday life, or your the sense of distance or absence of God, or confusion about how this actually a relationship with God actually plays out in daily life, then you could just open your notebook, if you want to that way and just say, Okay, here's like, 10 things that happened this week. And then you could read them all. And then we could say, I wonder which one should start with a

Andy Withrow: 17:10

spiritual director, a good spiritual director, would assume that God is always present. And so there's no data piece that's particularly necessarily irrelevant. Totally. I think that's when when we're individual and trying to make sense of our life. That's, that's a harder assumption to have often, yeah. But to have someone come along and say, No, don't ignore that. Let's, you know, you've got the whole thing we were talking about in the Beatitudes series that we're going through right now, how the whole realm of emotions, not just the happy positive emotions, but you read through the Psalms, all the realm of emotions, including sadness, and anger, and confusion, and just constellation those are all data points are relevant to understanding God's work in our life. And that's, I think, part of the learning that can happen, right? In terms of, okay, this negative thing that I want to associate with having nothing to do with my relationship with God might be telling me something important about who God is, and God's presence in my life.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:29

And yeah, I love that data point is such a helpful idea. Anything can be a data point, it feels a bit like a spoke of a wheel. Like if God's at the center of that wheel, any of those spokes, you can start with somebody

Andy Withrow: 18:43

who's just had a little bit of a critical distance from you just to kind of be able to helpfully pull some of those things out or draw attention to them. Where are you gonna we kind of get stuck in our own thoughts or in our own patterns and don't don't ascribe as much attention to it. That can be really helpful.

Vanessa Caruso: 19:01

Totally. And as you said that I thought, if spiritual direction feels a bit intimidating or too far away, you can do this with a friend. You know, you I remember having an assignment, probably in spiritual formation, where I had to find someone where we did 20 minutes each. So I talked for 20 minutes. Yeah. And they can't say anything to me, except for Listen, timer goes off. They talk for 20 minutes. I can't say anything to them or listen, within 45 minutes. Both of you have shared but you can't. You can't respond, encourage, say like, oh, it's not a big deal, or I would have done the same thing or, Wow, you really need to do something about that. Yeah. So that. That's basically it too, if you just wanted to go that route.

Andy Withrow: 19:49

Yeah. No, I think that's important to say because I think my my suspicion is along with professional counseling, in spiritual direction, too. like two different disciplines, but some overlap there is that these are things that we're does were friendships were designed for. But in a lot of ways, our friendships are. So I don't know impoverished and a lot of ways that we have not become we've failed at becoming good listeners to one another that these have had to become professionalized. And, yeah. And so, yeah, I think the vision of God's Kingdom is, really, this is what spiritual friendship is all about is listening. Well, drawing attention to what God might be speaking in one another's lives. And so I think we're just talking about formalizing that a bit in a context where that can be hard to come by sometimes.

Vanessa Caruso: 20:53

And I love what you said about taking ourselves seriously. It could be that you go to spiritual direction for a season, and you just kind of learned to take yourself seriously and God in your life seriously. And then you have kind of confidence to do that in a DNA type group or small group or with a group of friends or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's all I had for the logistics of spiritual direction. Do you have any more questions? No,

Andy Withrow: 21:26

that's good. So what's next

Vanessa Caruso: 21:28

for us?

Andy Withrow: 21:29

Oh, bear with any direction. Oh, that's it. That's it. You got it?

Vanessa Caruso: 21:32

Yeah. I mean, I think those are the basics. Yeah, that's

Andy Withrow: 21:35

part two. Well, we covered a lot of ground.

Vanessa Caruso: 21:37

Yeah, we did. Okay.

Andy Withrow: 21:39

So okay, then what's next for bear with me? Right. That's what we're talking about. That's

Vanessa Caruso: 21:43

what I was thinking.

Andy Withrow: 21:45

So Vanessa has been flirting with another podcast. It's true. And I just found out about it. Yep. The other day. And so we're having a to find the relationship podcast right here right now. In real time. Yeah. What are we doing next? Yeah. Is this the end? No, can

Vanessa Caruso: 22:06

we just take a break? Okay, it's

Andy Withrow: 22:07

gonna take a break. And we're gonna reevaluate and take a couple months. Yeah, off. While you kind of help with this other podcasts? Yeah. And then we're gonna come back and chat and see if we can continue on. So we're giving you a warning. Don't wait by your podcast platform for a couple of months. But come back and check. Yes. And we'll communicate something. Yes, we will. Even if it's like a short two minute. Hey, just kidding. We're gonna take another couple of months. But we'll let you know. We will, one of us will. And, or maybe we'll be back in a whole new round of things. But if you're, as always, if you got some ideas for you like to hear Vanessa and Andy debate, like we do or argue over some topic, just send us send us a note. Bear with me at table church.ca. Or if you think we should just stop? Yeah, if you've had enough and you feel like, let's end on a high note. Yeah. If this is one, then just let us know. Just finished quit while you're

Vanessa Caruso: 23:06

straight. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 23:08

We'll take it. We'll take the feedback. Yeah. Great.

Vanessa Caruso: 23:12

And I, you know, at some point, I wanted to reflect on what we learned, learned about doing this podcast in a way that hopefully would be helpful for other people to reflect on why do we do new things? And what is it about having a conversation, kind of in real time about what's really going on? In US and in our lives, which is very spiritual directory? what that's been like for us, because it has been really good. Yeah. So maybe that's coming.

Andy Withrow: 23:42

That's good. Yeah. Oh, and because I anticipate people are probably wondering, but the other podcast you're doing, can you share?

Vanessa Caruso: 23:47

Yes, it's called Three Association. And it's about spiritual direction. So it's three of us supervisors talking about different topics for about a half an hour, each episode that are relevant for spiritual directors. So

Andy Withrow: 24:03

it's kind of to kind of resource existing spiritual directors within the network that you work with. Yeah. So it's kind of a targeted focus podcast. Yeah. And you're gonna work on that because they're gonna batch a bunch together over the next couple months. So that's gonna be your focus. And then you might have a bit of time for that. We'll come back and, and reevaluate. Exactly great. Okay, I'm not too threatened by that.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:22

Okay. Yeah, I'm glad we talked about it. Okay, but Andy, I wanted to know, Oh, right. But I have mine. So you can think about it. I want to know something that you're excited about or where you're experiencing

Andy Withrow: 24:35

inspiration. Yeah. Excited or inspired by you go first. Okay.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:39

Okay. So you can think about it. Okay. I already told you about we're going to Disneyland. Right. This weekend.

Andy Withrow: 24:47

Lucky Disney. Yes. Because what's the occasion?

Vanessa Caruso: 24:51

My birthday? Wow. Yeah. But it's sort of because I have a nine year old you know, I wouldn't normally do this.

Andy Withrow: 24:57

Stephen going now.

Vanessa Caruso: 25:00

Now, but that's what I'm actually excited about. I had a friend say

Andy Withrow: 25:04

like the Did you ever watch Jim Gaffigan? Yeah, medium. Yeah, it remember this bit about? Some adults just go to Disneyland by themselves. I don't remember the old weirdos.

Vanessa Caruso: 25:14

Okay. Exactly. That's what I think about it. Like, I really think like, oh, I'm to something for Disneyland. Yeah, I'm just going for the kid.

Andy Withrow: 25:26

I could see myself going as an adult by myself. You can. But I, but it would be weird.

Vanessa Caruso: 25:34

But I so I have this group. Group, spiritual direction group. Yeah. And one of them. So I said, Oh, can we move our group? Because I'm actually going to be in Disneyland. Sorry, you know. And so somebody wrote back and was like, Well, I can't wait to, to hear how you find God at Disneyland. Or like, how you look forgot it, doesn't it? And I thought, I love doing those guides. Now I want to do a guide about how to find God at Disneyland. Okay, that's actually what it involves Mickey Mouse, I probably okay. So I'm not going to do the guide before I go. Because I don't know. Right. But I'm going to go on this whole trip. Yes. I'm going to be reflecting on your work expense. Yeah. And don't you think there are people in the world who would like a reflection guide about how to find God at Disneyland? So that's what's going to be happening in my head that has made me so excited for Disneyland. Is, is God here? Is that even possible? They made 27 point 4 billion in revenue last year.

Andy Withrow: 26:33

So as the land Yes, just as just the just not Disney World? Disneyland?

Vanessa Caruso: 26:37

I don't know. Doesn't matter. I don't know. Because someone else said that a large number Disney made 27 point 4 billion. Should should any any group have that much money? No. So I feel conflicted about that. Like, do I want to be then the next $300? Yeah, that pours into something like that. So it's a very conflicted place. I mean, it's supposed to be like a marketing, genius marketing situation in terms of how much it makes you spend and want to buy while you're there. I don't like any of that. Like in terms of James Smith's liturgies. I am very suspect about the Disney liturgy and what it's communicating and what it's getting. But I want to see if God's there, and I feel like God might be there. God was there for you and Emmett. And your family.

Andy Withrow: 27:28

It was pretty special. Yes.

Vanessa Caruso: 27:31

So see.

Andy Withrow: 27:33

Okay, next. All right. Well, maybe we'll we will have a debrief about this sometime in the future. Okay, on this very podcast, God

Vanessa Caruso: 27:40

can be at Disneyland, maybe God can be anywhere. That's also one of my questions.

Andy Withrow: 27:44

We have a Somis would say, you know, If I ascend to the heights of the heavens, or if I shall have dizzy or if I find in Disneyland, behold, you're there. Yeah, included. Okay, all right. Well, we'll be interested to see the thing I thought of as I really got into this content of the player by Thomas Merton, how cool is really short it's like the last thing he wrote before he before he died, but I'm only a few chapters in but just really trying to you know, just immerse myself slowly in every chapter is just a lot in there. I think the even the opening line of, of the first chapter, the climate in which monastic prayer flowers is that of the desert? Well, where the calm comfort of men is absent, where the secure routines of Man City offer no support, and we're prayer must be sustained by God in the purity of faith. Wow. Yeah, that's

Vanessa Caruso: 28:43

thick. That is like three sentences, maybe less and not as thick. You're right.

Andy Withrow: 28:48

Yeah, it's three commas one sentence, right?

Vanessa Caruso: 28:52

I love the flower that blooms in the desert.

Andy Withrow: 28:56

But it just, I mean, I think it reinforces what we're just talking about, about this. Maybe it's our cultural the cultural assumption I've grown up with is associating connection with God with positive feelings kind of this spiritual high and like not to take away from that because I think that's one dimension of it, but it's just this narrow dimension. And that even that this person who's dedicated a lot of his life to prayer is saying now the the right climate is the is the one that we're you're dislocated, where there's, you're disoriented where there isn't the things you can rely on. And I think it made me reflect on the spiritual disciplines as what are the spiritual disciplines aren't designed primarily to make you more spiritual, but to reveal your poverty. And that's why they're so hard.

Vanessa Caruso: 29:50

This is all going through the tracks and this

Andy Withrow: 29:52

is all going through the Beatitudes stuff because the first one is blessed are the spiritually impoverished because the Father is pleased to give the kingdom to such as these, and so everything keeps going back to this. What is it? What are the experience in life actually, that have socially with these negative feelings like, wow, the spiritual poverty Wow, I'm not what I thought it could be or what I thought I was or I'm more broken than I thought or I'm more dislocated than I thought or whatever. But these are the very things that reveal the need. That birth is prayer in us.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:24

Oh my gosh, excuse

Andy Withrow: 30:26

me, save me help me this the cry of the soul is straight, which is what Merton talks about a lot in his his book. Wow. Anyway, I know. It's a weird thing to be excited about. It just sort of opened up another dimension of spiritual life for me. That's been illuminating. That's all Wow.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:45

And yeah, I love that. We could do an episode on that.

Andy Withrow: 30:49

After Disneyland. Okay.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:50

Yeah, the two together. Wow. God is in the desert and at Disney. Disney okay, yes, it's

Andy Withrow: 31:06

been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Good wrap up a part two. And we'll check in. Thanks, everybody. Hi, everyone.