Vanessa Caruso: 0:16

We're here. Nice. Hi, Andy. Hi, Vanessa. How's it gone? Good.

Andy Withrow: 0:20

It's been a few weeks. It has we were gonna do a part two, we're gonna do part two of spiritual direction. Yeah, we were and we're gonna do it like the next week. Yeah. And then I said, I can't do it now something about kids. I can't remember. And then I was gone for a week and then you and I was gone for the night, then you were gone. Right. Anyway, we're back now. And it's time to do part two spiritual direction, except that we find out that it's, we're in the middle where it just started Advent. Yeah. We can't start Advent without talking about Advent. So we're gonna put a pin in spiritual direction. Yes, yeah. And come back to it later. Probably next time. I would think so. Yeah. And we're gonna talk about Advent. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:03

Are you tired of talking about Advent? No. Oh, good.

Andy Withrow: 1:08

I don't ever actually not talked about it that much. Okay. So far.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:12

So I put together this Advent guide. Yes. So I have been thinking about Advent for a few weeks. And now I'm just, I feel a little bit self conscious. Like, oh, is everyone like, to advented out like a lot more podcasts this year? I feel like even than last year, are about Advent. Do you notice that? It's becoming cool.

Andy Withrow: 1:35

Yeah, I think it's catching on. Yeah, it's a new idea.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:39

For some new old idea. Yeah. So I do feel a little what's the word when you've been in something too long? Like been too up close to it? Yeah. So I thought, Okay, what would be kind of a fresh, authentic way to talk about Advent where I don't get too stale, because I have been sitting in it for a while. So I would like to share seven things that are kind of alive. For me. I love lists. So this is great. Good. I love lists, too. You know what number you're on? And how many more? There you go. Okay. So that's what I'd like to do. They're very, they're not in order. Some of them are random, but they're the things that kind of excite me the most about Advent Vanessa's

Andy Withrow: 2:26

top seven Advent ideas in order.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:29

Okay, are you ready for the first time?

Andy Withrow: 2:31

They're not in? Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:33

Okay. top seven.

Andy Withrow: 2:34

Okay. Is this a countdown from seven to one? No, no, because they're not in order. But people it'd be more exciting if they were. I can't decide which will be the first in no particular order. Starting at number one. Vanessa's big Advent idea. Go.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:49

Okay, make Advent matter. Again. This is not maybe Mama is mama.

Andy Withrow: 3:02

Okay, okay. Down here. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:05

Okay, so we all know Dewey that Advent means coming. So it's the period of weeks leading up to Christmas, where we remember Jesus coming to Bethlehem God as a child. We also look forward to Jesus's return, Christ's second coming. But I feel a little bit like we can go through the motions a bit, I should speak for myself. What I mean by make Advent matter, again, is that I don't want to just like reenact the story in kind of a shallow way, the way that a pageant might not saying that ship pageants are shallow. But there there is this sense of, you know, putting on the the outfit of Advent or something like this spiritualized words and motions and stuff like that without, for me sometimes without really thinking like, what, what matters this year 2022 In my life and my family and my friends, in this moment in history, in my time, and what would it be like to resist the urge to kind of just go through the motions and actually be part of like integrating or birthing? Something that matters? This year? This is making sense. This one's pretty vaguely formed for me.

Andy Withrow: 4:40

Yeah, it makes it makes sense. I mean, always always the temptation, the autopilot stuff. And I think the calendar year the liturgy in part of the helpfulness of it is it does carry you to agree to really where you're exhausted your decision fatigue, you don't have to decide what reading to read. Yeah, if you've got an advent calendar or Advent devotional or an add in some sort of plan. And so I think that's the good side of it nice. But if it's too much that and there's no sort of, okay, I need to I also need to do my part and show up in some meaningful way, then, then we can miss a lot. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of

Vanessa Caruso: 5:23

Andy, I'm just I love that you said that their Advent does provide a container and it you can rest in that and let it carry you. I love that. If you get too comfortable, if I get too comfortable, if I get too familiar with it, if I take it for granted too much. There is a form of spiritual bypassing that can happen, where I let spiritual things and ideas and words and phrases take my attention away from the important things that God's actually trying to get my attention about in my real life. And that's what I don't want to do this and I think

Andy Withrow: 5:59

for me on this on this topic, it's it's being okay with a lot of the being okay with some of the autopilot stuff because I can't because the decision because there's so much and if I'm going to just pick one thing to show up for or say okay, well, this is this is where we're at today, this is the whatever the thing is the the reading the response, the devotion to the practices, what are the other six practices we're gonna look at are to say, Okay, I'm going to my part is to, is to engage in short for this thing. And I can let God do and the calendar the season, do a lot more of the work or God do a lot more the work through the season. I love

Vanessa Caruso: 6:43

that. Like, let God do the heavy lifting. It feels like you're saying but show up and to do one thing at a time. That's pretty relieving to me, too.

Andy Withrow: 6:54

That's, if you're going to ask me. What's God when speaking to you this season? Literally, in my little prayer journal, is the words or the phrase one thing at a time. No way. Yeah. That's so cool. That's really important for me, and very hard to do hard. Freeing when I remember. Yeah, I can really only do one thing at a time. Well, truly. Yeah. Which makes a lot of other things hard, like decisions about what's the one thing you're good? Yes. The nice spring part is I only have to do one thing at a time. So you only really do one thing at a time. The hard part is clearing the deck.

Vanessa Caruso: 7:35

Yeah. What a great season to practice one thing at a time.

Andy Withrow: 7:40

Yep. It's with advent. slowdown. One thing at a time. Great, Andy, which, which I understand. Some people might hear that and say I can't. I'm sure I get it. Yeah. Good point. It's hard to slow down.

Vanessa Caruso: 7:57

Okay, number two. Okay. All right. Moving on.

Andy Withrow: 8:01

That's number one. Make Advent matter again. Number two on Vanessa's.

Vanessa Caruso: 8:07

I'll just say about matter. Matter is the stuff you know, like this desk, this water bottle. So in a way I'm talking about like, bring it down to earth

Andy Withrow: 8:17

make mad or make me get matter. Double? Yeah, like it. See. Mama. Gosh, you bury the lead. Can

Vanessa Caruso: 8:26

Okay, number two. Number two. This phrase bids for attention. I heard it in a podcast with the Goldmans. Do you know the Goldmans? They're both counselors. They live in Oregon. They're great. They have a new book

Andy Withrow: 8:40

out seven principles that make marriage work. Yes. Yeah, we've used that. You use that? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. For marriage class. Wow. That's good stuff. Elaine recommended that

Vanessa Caruso: 8:50

amazing. Okay, so they were in a podcast and talking about bids for attention. And I just loved the phrase bids for attention and what to do about bids for attention. So a bid for attention is when and when we're trying to get someone's attention, affirmation affection, or any other kind of connection. So the example is like, if your partner says like, oh, wow, look at this cool hummingbird. What, how are you going to respond to that? Are you going to turn toward that bid for attention? Are you going to turn away by not acknowledging it just go on typing? Are you going to turn against it by saying something actually like oh, you're you're always interrupting me or whatever? Birds? Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 9:35

Okay, so can you say the thing again, like what's the what's the number two is bids for attention bids for attention? Pay attention to wait, no. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:47

Okay, well, how would I say it? I'm thinking of bids for attention versus bids for

Andy Withrow: 9:57

in attention.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:59

I wish It was that easy. It's more like bids for purchase bids for attract distraction. Okay, like everything else this season and in our lives that our art dinging

Andy Withrow: 10:10

was connected with the one thing at a time it does sing, it's really like in intention with your bids for attention or something like that

Vanessa Caruso: 10:19

nice. I should have ran through this list with you beforehand. Make it No, it's

Andy Withrow: 10:23

nice. It's fresh. It's not rehearsed, folks. This is real

Vanessa Caruso: 10:27

in tension or bids for attention I share. Okay, something like that.

Andy Withrow: 10:32

Well, tongue twister, but intentional, be intentional with kids for tension.

Vanessa Caruso: 10:40

So you probably know their research that couples who are successful, you know, who stayed together have successful marriages, they turned towards their partners bids for connection 86% of the time. So that's a high amount of time they turned towards, which is not getting up every time someone says, look at this bird, and you're like, drop everything, you have to go look at the bird. But you might say, Oh, just second, I'm just gonna finish this text. And then you go over. And oh, what do you like about this bird? At 6% of the time, people who are successful in these relationships do that. The other is couples who are not successful in their marriages, they only did turn toward 33% of the time, otherwise, they turned away or turned against. I was thinking more listening to this podcast about God's bids for our attention. And how often do I turn toward it? Or do I just ignore it? Because I can, because so much is invisible. And nobody sees what's going on in my heart in my head, and other people's bids for attention, not partners, but friends, family members, children, strangers, people at school pickup and drop off grocery line, fellow grocery line people, you know, it just made me wonder, wow, is the world full of bids for attention in a really alive kind of way versus all the bids for attention that are happening on social media. And the way my phone is built to pull me in and suck me away? I'm over

Andy Withrow: 12:18

that cutting the ding the notification ding Yes.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:21

And I want to be awake to these other bids for attention.

Andy Withrow: 12:25

That's better be awake.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:27

Thank you.

Andy Withrow: 12:28

B. That's way better.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:30

Oh my gosh, we have Ba Ba Be awake bids for attention, Baba.

Andy Withrow: 12:36

Like, for bids for Did you in you were talking about even maybe a special attention to God's bids for attention? What would what would that look like? What would God's bids for attention?

Vanessa Caruso: 12:48

I think they happen a lot like a little paying.

Andy Withrow: 12:53

I would assume that the Lord is near?

Vanessa Caruso: 12:55

It would. He has, you know, the little paying twinge that you sometimes have about something you said or did that just didn't feel quite right. Or like should I follow up on that? Should I apologize? Was that true? Or like someone pops into your mind? And you're like, Hmm, I have thought about that person for a long time. Oh, well. What if it's not an oh, well, what if there's something there? Another bid would be for my own body? Like you know, I Mike hobbling as I get out of bed, because I've just been working so much. Yeah. And not having margins, not trusting God, he's

Andy Withrow: 13:35

giving you notifications? Oh,

Vanessa Caruso: 13:37

that's very obvious notification. Yeah. But I'm like, whatever. I can push through this. Those are all the beds. I'm curious about.

Andy Withrow: 13:45

God speaks to you through your body at times. Definitely.

Vanessa Caruso: 13:48

I really do. What about?

Andy Withrow: 13:51

I've been wondering lately, because I've been paying attention to try to pay attention to anxiety. Yeah. Which sometimes is sort of this ringing or buzzing in the background? Yeah. Or, or even like a tightness that I carry in my body like my shoulders or, or my chest or my stomach? And I don't it's not always I know exactly what it is. But like I noticed, like the first indication is on tight. Yeah. What's this about? Yeah. And which is fascinating to me that it's not on the front of my mind to not the things I make sure are always on the front of my mind. But there's, there's somewhere resident in my body. Yeah. And I have to kind of unlock it a little. Yeah. The idea that, whether that's whether that you could say that that's God bringing that to my attention, like you've not let something go. That needs to be let go or you're not dealt with something that you need to have a conversation with me about. That's how I'm starting to interpret it in this season. I love it's a helpful way to start to process it.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:51

I love that Andy. So, there is this whole idea of focusing Have you heard of focusing it's Like a modality is Yeah. So we're these Jesuit authors who wrote, rediscovering the last body connection and Christian spirituality. They kind of bring together theology, spiritual formation and focusing in that one of the practices they recommend is asking, in the beginning of your prayer time. What in my body today needs my most loving attention. And it's a conversation starter with God. And so you just become aware of tightness, soreness, lightness, you

Andy Withrow: 15:35

think you think God speaks to us through created things like our body? Yes. These things explicit, it's Advent matter, again, matter all tied together. It really is. So he's, you would say, he's incarnational. God,

Vanessa Caruso: 15:53

I would, Andy, you're so good at interpreting me. Sure.

Andy Withrow: 15:57

everyone's on the same page. Good. Keep going. Okay,

Vanessa Caruso: 16:00

so that's bids for attention. The last thing about bids for attention is just the reminder that most often the words we need to hear, would you say, Okay, how would you finish that sentence? Oh, no, that's too hard. Most often, the words we need to hear come through another human being come through each other. I personally believe that to be true. Yeah. God does speak, I would say most often through other people, versus audibly to me. And so I feel this great opportunity during Advent, to be the mouthpiece, the body, the hand on the shoulder, the presence that somebody else needs to hear, because people are going to be that for me. What God knows what I need, and it's going to come through talking to you, do you know what I mean? More than if I like go on a silent retreat for seven days. More just like in terms of a normal life?

Andy Withrow: 17:00

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think I'm Eve examples of God speaking through people all the time. And sometimes they're not aware. And sometimes they're even antithetical to God, but you can still use them to speak. Yeah. And so I think there's wisdom and trusting people that you know, are, are listening to God, speaking thoughtfully, and in with wisdom. But even even sometimes, in casual conversations, you can hear how I think God was speaking to me through that exchange. It's learning to listen and pay attention, and being familiar with the voice of God or the voice of Jesus.

Vanessa Caruso: 17:45

Which we've talked a lot about. Yeah, that is a theme of ours.

Andy Withrow: 17:49

Yeah, it's one of our favorite themes. Okay, number three, make Advent matter again. Number one, be awake to God's bids for your attention. Number two, good job number three on Vanessa's list of seven not top seven, but seven for this.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:08

Darkness isn't bad.

Andy Withrow: 18:13

Darkness isn't bad.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:16

There's this great new kids book, but it's just as effectual for me, called God's holy darkness. And it's pictures and words all about the beautiful, necessary important things that come from darkness. And there's a lot of darkness and light themes and Advent like this bright star shining against a dark night womb. You know, a womb is dark. And we don't know what's happening in there. But we trust something's growing. But there is the I've become aware that there's the tendency to associate or to put kind of a hierarchy as light is good, dark is bad. And then the unfortunate correlation is whiteness is better than blackness. So I read a translation of the Bible that sometimes changes, darkness or blackness for bleakness. Just as a way to try to get out of that binary that sometimes happens.

Andy Withrow: 19:20

The the biblical metaphor for darkness would be confusion or deceit or not, not being it was just like the very basic Yeah, well, you turn the light on so you can see right and understand what's happening. Or you're walking in darkness. Yeah, people who've walked in darkness have seen a great light. But physical darkness in and of itself is a necessary thing, right? For human thriving.

Vanessa Caruso: 19:49

Yeah. Which I just want to be getting a good night's sleep example. Right? It's huge. It's like the bedrock of everything else getting slammed into a dark room. So there's this TED Talk. I want to watch during Advent about the need for. It's in my guide, like the need for darkness, the human need for darkness and then I want to take a walk at night, because I just want to start undoing that kind of built in. What is it called binary I have or whatever that light is good. Dark is bad. I just want to like, kind of untangle that and become more open to darkness not so not so quick to get out of it or to rush out of it.

Andy Withrow: 20:36

Okay, but what does this have to do with I've been?

Vanessa Caruso: 20:39

Because it's, it's winter.

Andy Withrow: 20:42

It's the darkest part of the year. Yeah. For us in the northern hemisphere. It is.

Vanessa Caruso: 20:45

I know Australia is like getting ready for some sort of Australia I'd be a little bit alienated by I'm sorry about that. I love Australians. So I guess it's Advent because there's waiting and Advent. So there is kind of like, there's kind of this shadow cast over the four weeks, it says, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty Oh, I didn't say this part. So my spiritual director did a talk on uncertainty recently. And so he shared with me that kind of his main metaphor for the spirituality of uncertainty is a shoreline. And he said the invitation is to learn to stand on the edge there were on you know, behind us on the sand or on land is certainty and knowledge. The ocean kind of represents mystery and uncertainty. And, and the tension is learning how to stand on the shore. Sometimes we need to step back and like get our bearings and be like, whew, this is intense. Sometimes we need to take a quick ocean dip. Yeah, get revitalized and like immerse ourselves in mystery, but learning how to stand on the shore. Well, and I just loved that idea.

Andy Withrow: 21:58

Yeah, I like that. The, I think the comfort of knowing the comfort of darkness is the comfort of Gods of Gods mystery, which we need because God has to necessarily be way, way, way, way bigger than us and and our hopes and our dreams, or else. God is not big enough. Yeah. And so I think that's the, for me, that's sort of the corollary of this is the comfort of that bigness of God knowing what's in the light as well as the was revealed is His goodness and His compassion as far as his love the gospel. And knowing that you get that faithfulness and that promise so the things that we don't see, we don't we don't to worry about, but we're also celebrating because it points to something way bigger. Yeah, and unsearchable in God's bigness and goodness. Which is fun. Look

Vanessa Caruso: 22:52

at you just like riffing on the spot. Yeah, so beautifully.

Andy Withrow: 22:56

Set me up. Darkness isn't bad. Yep.

Vanessa Caruso: 23:00

Are you ready for number four?

Andy Withrow: 23:01

Okay, so we got make up and matter again, be awake to God's bids for attention and darkness isn't bad. Pointing to Dr. realities.

Vanessa Caruso: 23:14

Geez. I sent her on. December number four, December

Andy Withrow: 23:18

number four on Vanessa's list of seven things for this.

Vanessa Caruso: 23:23

December is sad. Of course, it's not only sad, but we have plenty of songs and propaganda, and advertisements telling us it's the most wonderful time of the year. And that if we were like everyone else, we would feel happy and feel joy and be excited about our lives and who we're going to see. So I just like remembering that. It's okay to experience sadness and Advent, there's actually a lot of sadness in the biblical Advent story leading up to Jesus's birth and right around his birth. I mean, there's weeping and mourning, because, you know, there's the one baby who was born. And then there's all the children who were murdered. Because of that baby being born. Like that's intense. And that's like our lives in our world today. Yeah, there's miracles and there's life and it's crazy how much goes right in the universe. And there's so much that goes wrong. So a favorite quote is from my favorite Advent devotional called all Creation weights. It's about what animals do in winter to survive. And she said, the church history book that got ahold of me told me that my own annual December sadness was no reason for guilt. It was a sign of being wide awake in the world, awake enough to sense loss, and there was a way to engage that sadness and that way was Advent. So that's a beautiful invitation to Advent to me just to compliment all the joyful, happy shiny ones yet already out there.

Andy Withrow: 25:12

Yeah. So Aven is the season of waiting and anticipation tapping into deeper longings unfulfilled in you know, temporarily in our in our time and space, and that may not be fulfilled at Christmas or, or next year or the year after that. But the promises and God's goodness and faithfulness that they are true, truly deepest longings will be fulfilled in what Christmas points to. So, if you feel sad, during there's a sadness during Advent than you are in rhythm with the season. Yeah. And to connect that to a deeper longing for God's coming, and justice and peace and goodness. And fulfillment is, is where the season oriented parallels Lent, for Easter, the six weeks leading up to Easter where there is tapping into this deeper longing, anticipation of what God is going to do to make things right again in our own individual lives. And then in our world.

Vanessa Caruso: 26:18

Again, Andy, yes. When you said, tapping into that longing, or letting the longing point us, you know, even preparing our kids for the crash that happens. Christmas Day, afternoon after opening presents a lot of excitement. But then there's always for most of us, at least there was for me as a kid, just this like, that's it. Like I was like, so excited for so long. And now I have all this stuff around me. And it's not actually filling that hole in my heart. So that we can talk about that with our kids. But when you talked about connecting that longing with like, embracing it for a longing that will be fulfilled, it reminded me of being hungry and thirsty the way we are. And let's like there's more of a fasting Association in Lent than an Advent. But I've heard of people taking on fasts of sort during advantage.

Andy Withrow: 27:14

I think and I think if you're a worship leader, I think the there's an encouragement to not overplay or too early play the the Christmas carols. I mean, it's sort of the way that we've gone but it's not traditionally the way it's done. And I know that there's some way not getting around that but to at least salt into your your Sunday worship gatherings, some lament and some mourning and some of the classic Advent hymns or songs, contemporary songs to that you can find that kind of play that note that give people permission to bring their sadness and longings into worship. Because that's a note that a good chunk of the church in North America has not played super well, because we were sort of this tendency to go, go positive and go happy. But if you read through the Psalms, which is our, you know, Israel's hymn book that gives us a lot of direction in how to shape our worship gatherings, there's a lot of lament and a lot of sadness there, that God desires us to bring into the worship moment. is there's a lot of great things that can happen. I love that.

Vanessa Caruso: 28:23

Pope Francis said, sometimes tears are the glasses, we need to see Jesus. And I like that, particularly thinking about Christmas, because we're thinking about like welcoming Jesus, seeing Jesus and I like the permission that if you have literal tears, or you just feel down, or you feel like something's missing, that it's not because something's wrong with you, you know? Yeah, like you said, your instep actually, with the season to be experiencing some of those things, especially if you're able to kind of see where they take you and how they can take you to God.

Andy Withrow: 29:03

Great, okay, that's for four. Okay, we got make, that doesn't matter. Again, God bids for beware because bids for our attention. Darkness isn't bad. December is sad. And number five

Vanessa Caruso: 29:16

is related. Number five, is read the room. I've just liked that phrase. You know, like when you start using words more, in some seasons, all of a sudden, you're like, wow, I've said explicit, like, every day for a week. I wonder why. I like noticing that there's something about the Word explicit that is mine that I just say more than I ever used to. A phrase that comes up for me more than it used to is read the realm. I think it's a parenting situation for me, where my son's at a stage where I feel like saying that sometimes because of a lack of awareness of other people. And I feel like saying like read the round now. So it's just it's just on the forefront of my mind, but in Advent, I want to remember as like a spiritual leader type person that I am to read the room. One time I went on a women's retreat. And the passage chosen to kind of focus on it wasn't an adventure was Elizabeth and Mary, which might make sense. But there was 20 of us. And we all knew each other. And there were a couple of women who struggled with infertility, and pregnancy loss. And then a few more that just had the unfulfilled desire to be partnered, pregnant and have a family. And that was very painful that the focus on that passage for a women's retreat, I feel like we didn't read the room, and I was part of the leadership for that. So that that made an impression on me. Like, I don't want to make that mistake. Again, an Advent is just a season with a ton of family, baby pregnancy womb. Themes. And so it's just on my list, personally as like, think think before I speak, Vanessa, when I lead in prayer, or welcome people at church or the sermon, do you know what I mean? Want to Read the room? Like, who am I talking to? What stage of life? Are they in? Are they in the same one as me? No, not everyone is? I don't want to alienate people who are not exhausted. Yeah, for example.

Andy Withrow: 31:27

Yeah. Yeah, that's good sensitivity to who you're talking to, whether individually or in a group and how things will be received. I mean, yeah, same thing with just hypothetically speaking, if someone was raising like a teenage daughter, then it's like learning some things that are counterintuitive, like how to listen better and not kind of go from go from dad mode parent mode of, oh, here's what you do. Or here's the advice, or here's the parenting thing to know that note, the primary note right now in this season is Be a good listener, and seek to be someone who understands something

Vanessa Caruso: 32:12

that must take a lot of self components.

Andy Withrow: 32:15

That as a parent, you have to learn to play after they have a long season of playing other notes very loudly. Yeah. Because this person is a new phase in a new stage. And there's there's a different relationship, emerging fast, and it's easy to miss. I'd like to talk more about that. Sometime. Maybe a podcast podcast episode is all hypothetical. People deal with

Vanessa Caruso: 32:37

teenagers, but we can learn spiritual formation for being with teens. Okay, that was five.

Andy Withrow: 32:44

I have two more. Okay, number six.

Vanessa Caruso: 32:48

Buying won't save us

Andy Withrow: 32:52

to nice. Is it? Double? Yeah. Okay. Well,

Vanessa Caruso: 32:54

I kind of stole it

Andy Withrow: 32:56

buying won't save us double meeting?

Vanessa Caruso: 33:02

How was it a double meaning?

Andy Withrow: 33:03

Well, if you buy stuff you're not saving.

Vanessa Caruso: 33:06

I didn't even touch that. That was just natural, wet buying stuff. Save you. Yeah, I meant save your soul won't save ourselves won't save your bank account won't, which is a really good point. So that's just something I'm very excited about this Advent, there's this conversation happening on anti consumerism. It's like virtual is December 13. It's in my guide, and I signed up for it. And I'm just excited to use a Wednesday or whatever it is, in December, to have a conversation with people around North America, about how do we resist consumerism? Because I need help. I like have lots of ideals. And then I buy something from Amazon and I don't know what to do. You know, that kind of conundrum. Do you know what you're talking about? But I took that line from an excerpt from Robin wall Kimmerer, who wrote braiding sweetgrass, this is an essay she wrote not braiding sweetgrass, but she talks about she has an essay on scarcity, gift economy. And one of her lines in it is hoarding won't save us. All flourishing was mutual. And it's just a crowded time of year, like the lists of nieces and nephews to buy something for stocking stuffers. Advent practices. Yeah. Parties

Andy Withrow: 34:31

is difficult because a lot of people want you got a lot of people whose love language is gift giving. And and I think it's often shorthand for a lot of things, especially in long distance relationships that we can't otherwise do or have the resources to give. But this is something that we can we can give. So it's a really tricky one. You're right.

Vanessa Caruso: 34:54

There is love and relationship and connection behind it. It's not just consumers and for the sake of like Black Friday.

Andy Withrow: 35:00

Yeah, but it is kind of implicated and all that stuff. Yeah. disentangle everything. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:08

Okay, are you ready for seven? In No, no particular

Andy Withrow: 35:12

importance of order number seven. So this isn't your top one. No, it's not. Isn't your This isn't your bottom one either? No, it's just one.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:20

It's just fine. Okay, this

Andy Withrow: 35:21

is number seven on Vanessa's All Time list for dishpan. Eben, at least of Advent things to think about or practices. Ready?

Vanessa Caruso: 35:30

Yeah. Number seven. Okay. Quit Advent.

Andy Withrow: 35:35

This is everything you've just been talking

Vanessa Caruso: 35:38

about Advent matter again and then quit it. Was it so admin doesn't matter? No, it does. But us doing it. Well, profound ly simply. Beautifully happily. Does. Doesn't matter. Okay.

Andy Withrow: 35:56

Okay. Yeah, go on. Okay. I'm intrigued.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:58

Okay, so my favorite thing I've I've discovered recently quitting. No, yeah. Quitting exercise. Have you ever? Yeah. experiences, I just realized it's one of the best feelings in the world. I go through these cycles of like, okay, I need to be active. Yeah. So I think like, Okay, I'm going to walk every day for half an hour. Or I'm going to jog three times a week, or I'm gonna do yoga on YouTube for 15 minutes a day. And I like stay in that zone for a little bit. And I'm like, Yeah, and so every day, I'm like, okay, is today an active day or not? Okay. Yes, no, yes. Now, when I realized this happens every couple months, I don't have to do it. I could just quit it. It's just like the best feeling in the world deciding that I'm not going to care anymore. About being active, until I start, like feeling sore. anxious, and I'm like, Oh, I probably should be active again. And then we start back up the cycle, but it's this sweet. Couple of weeks. Yeah. For two months of when I quit exercise. Yeah. So I invite you to try that.

Andy Withrow: 37:02

Yeah, I like that. It's nice. It's a I see the things that made me think it was like a reset on Advent or like, for me, a lot of this kind of stuff is a chance to reevaluate my approach to something. So maybe I'm coming at this all wrong. Maybe I need to quit it and come back to it again, fresh a different time and say, Is there a new way to experience this? That doesn't cause anxiety and stress and death? And whatever else? Yeah. Whatever else? Am I putting too much? Yeah, stuff on myself. For this moment?

Vanessa Caruso: 37:35

Yeah. Yeah, I love reset. Like, just knowing that that's possible. Like, I don't have my Advent isn't doomed? If I didn't start it yet, or if I bit off more than I can chew. And now I feel overwhelmed. I don't have to like fake it till I make it. There is built in to our theology that Jesus does do the saving. Yes, that I can fail, quote, unquote, fail, quote, unquote, give up and quit, and still be loved. And sometimes it's just like a sweet relief. It's like the best news in the world that if I don't go to that thing I said, I would go to, I don't want to like ghost anything. I don't think that's the way to do it. But like, last night, I said, I would go to something and then I just really didn't want to. And so I was like, No, I'm doing it. And Stephen was like, Is there anything like, let's think through this? Is there a way of being honest and respectful? And not going and it took courage for me to do it because I don't want to be flaky. But it was a it was a relational moment. It strengthened the relationship a little bit to say, hey, here's what's going on for me. And here's what I'm worried about. I really could use tonight for something this other thing. So it was vulnerable, but it was a reset. It was like a stepping back, like you said and saying wait a second. Like I aimed to get in touch with my longing and my need for God at Christmas. Am is all the stuff I'm trying to do. Is it? Is it taking me there? Is it? Am I still aiming in that direction? Or do I need to let some things go? Or to experience forgiveness and grace from people? Yeah. That might be part of it. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 39:25

Yeah, like that. I think, to kind of bring it back full circle to make Advent matter again. It makes me think of that balance between letting the season or the community or the liturgy, carry you when you need to, and then figuring out what's my role. I tell a lot of new parents or parents who just had kids at the table, like your job is just to show up. You have no other job, because it takes so much energy when you've got new kids and multiple young kids. Like you Don't expect you to wash dishes or lead a group or do anything, like just show up when you can. And if you can, and be present as present you can with with kids hanging off of you and, and all that sort of thing like that's, that's the that's the assignment for the season and then, and then when there's more capacity to engage at a different level

Vanessa Caruso: 40:22

we'll talk then. That's wonderful.

Andy Withrow: 40:25

So it's nice to be able to go back and hit the reset button and say, I'm going to quit with my own expectations and other people's expectations on this season or this moment or this thing, and then come back at it again, with with fresh eyes in a new way. We did it, we did it. Seven,

Vanessa Caruso: 40:42

seven things about that.

Andy Withrow: 40:46

So next time, we're gonna come back and we'll aim to do part two of the spiritual formation direction. Sorry, spiritual direction. Like nuts, get started nuts and bolts. So back and we didn't talk about this. I can't remember. Are we going to it's December. Yeah, we have time to do this. Do you have time to come back? Yeah. So we'll try to do this before before the New Year. One more episode. Probably. Yeah, wrap up the Scripture section. Okay, great. Thank you next time. Bye.