Vanessa Caruso: 0:01

Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life.

Andy Withrow: 0:18

Hey, Vanessa, Hi, Andy. Good morning.

Vanessa Caruso: 0:21

Good morning. How are you? I'm pretty good. Good. I'm well, good. How are you?

Andy Withrow: 0:27

Good. Weird. We've been taking turns. Because best videos, I never agree on anything. And we fight about everything. doesn't always come out in the podcast, but we've only usually resolved stuff before we record. But anyway, we take turns

Vanessa Caruso: 0:48

with the topics, because then we can have so many arguments. That's right.

Andy Withrow: 0:52

So everybody wins. Yeah. So today is one of Vanessa's topics on spiritual direction. Yes. Thank

Vanessa Caruso: 0:59

you for letting me do one on spiritual

Andy Withrow: 1:01

direction. You're welcome. It was I was debating but decided go ahead and you have a turn.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:08

I wanted to do one because I'm a spiritual director. And whenever someone like at school, pickup or you know, settings where someone's like, oh, and what do you do? I kind of like freeze and I'm like, I'm a spiritual director. And they're like, Oh, what's that?

Andy Withrow: 1:27

And he's kind of like this creepy music in the back totally.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:32

Most people, I think, think I'm a shaman. I mean, this guy literally just said the other day, he was like, Oh, so you're like a shaman? Interesting. I was like, Oh, no. How do you describe your

Andy Withrow: 1:44

some overlap there? Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 1:45

yeah. Oh, there's not much about shamans. I don't either. But I think there's some overlap. But so I wanted to do this so that I could practice talking about what it is. And because I love it, and I would love for more people to go to spiritual direction. But I think one of the main problems is that they don't actually know what it is

Andy Withrow: 2:04

or why they would go is what happens, what's involved what they're getting into.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:08

Yeah, whether they need it, right, whether it's worth it, because it's time and money, like $10,000. Yeah, a session. So it's steep, but worth it. Okay. So I'll just tell you some things about spiritual direction. And then Andy, just, you know, ask questions or piping anytime. Great. So spiritual direction, is the biggest umbrella I can think of, is to say that it's a space to talk honestly about your spiritual life. But it's two people, focusing on one person, spiritual life, and by spiritual life, I don't just mean the things we might associate with spirituality, like prayer, meditation, study of sacred texts, worship. Those things can be part of the conversation, of course, but I think of spirituality as everything in our lives. You know, everything can be spiritual, I think of spirituality more as our connection to things to God, to ourselves, to people to the earth, to our money to our sexuality. And so the content of spiritual direction is anything that's coming up in your life, and how you're responding to that. So far, so good.

Andy Withrow: 3:32

Yeah. Great. Yeah. No, I'm on board so far. Amazing. Good. Still with you? Great.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:37

So far. Okay. So Eugene Peterson talks really simply about spiritual direction. So one of the things he says is that when two people agree to give their full attention to what God is doing in one of their lives, that spiritual direction, so that's a that's a feature of spiritual direction is that it isn't a mutual conversation. It's more like therapy in that way, where you go to receive the full attention, listening, mirroring question asking of another person. And its spiritual directions based on the assumptions. Peterson says that God is always doing something. And each of our lives, there's always a movement there. There's always a grace there. There's always an invitation to respond or participate with this movement of the Spirit in our lives. And the second thing he says is that responding isn't sheer guesswork. You know, it's not just this arbitrary, personalized, like, I have to figure this out on my own. There is wisdom and there's ways of discerning and responding that we can access. And the third thing he says is that everyone is unique. And so how we live out our spirituality, our faith is unique for everyone and you have to discern how how a response looks, depending on your life. situation, your personality, your stage. And so spiritual direction a large part of it is that discernment work of, okay, what is going on in my life? And how do I respond to it with integrity? And that looks different for everybody. So spiritual direction is a space to work that out.

Andy Withrow: 5:20

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's well, there's a lot of things in there. So the, and we've talked about this before the idea that discern the was it? I can't remember his name is Gordon

Vanessa Caruso: 5:39

Green or Thomas Smith.

Andy Withrow: 5:43

Gordon Smith.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:43

Yeah, the disarmament?

Andy Withrow: 5:45

Yeah. It is inside. It's a it's the, the, the streams of tradition through through Christian history of the assumption. Born out from the Bible itself, that God is active and present in always speaking in some in some way that does not shy. And I think just that idea is always, always fascinating to me, like God is interested in communicating. Yes. And just that mere possibility that potentiality just gets me excited, like, Okay, well, then there must be some way to hear God to listen to God's voice in my life. And in that there, it's not just guesswork and the idea that God has given us the scriptures to be able to this wisdom, yeah. To be able to discern, this is what the kinds of things that God says is what God sounds like. Yes, sir. We've been talking about this with the, the 10 commandments. And the law is that it's not like our laws today, where everything is codified. You've got a law for everything. And if you don't, as soon as someone does something crazy, they'll make one, right? That wasn't law in the ancient world, would we get the 10 commandments, we get the stipulations in Exodus and other places. It's, it's actually wisdom, it's legal wisdom. It's not complete enough to be a system of law. And they depended on elders, and judges and kings to be able to rule these very specific things that didn't have specific laws or rules around them, like you didn't know what to do. So you had to rely on wisdom to be able to do this because every situation was unique. It was just what it reminds me of it just kind of bridging the context a little bit, that our religion or spirituality is not a one size fits all. Yeah, type of thing. And so it requires God, I think it's a feature not a bug. God made it that way. So that we would be in relationship with one another. Yeah, work. kind of work through things together. Fascinating.

Vanessa Caruso: 8:03

Love it. Yeah, I love I've said this quote before to, Rachel Held, Evans said, its wisdom is not about what is true, but about when it's true. So that application and a discernment around the particularities of our lives and our, the life in the world, our lives as citizens, all of that matters in applying what is true. Okay, so, Andy, when you hear the term spiritual director, like if someone's like, well, it was meeting with my spiritual director, or you meet someone in there like, Oh, I'm a spiritual director, what are your associations with that? Like, what comes to mind when you hear that?

Andy Withrow: 8:48

spiritual director? Let's see. Someone who directs someone spiritually.

Vanessa Caruso: 8:54

You go real literal with it. Like do you don't have any like, pictures? Just total honest, free association? Spiritual factor?

Andy Withrow: 9:05

I don't. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Sorry. I should, I should have thought about them.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:14

No, it might not have anything like that. A connotation with it.

Andy Withrow: 9:20

Oh, like? Well, I think it's, it can be similar, I think to like, a counseling or professional counseling. Yeah, connotation, which for me, isn't overly negative, but I think it can be negative, like, it can be problematic. And I would go, I would follow. It was it's James Houston, who talked about counselors as paid friends. Oh, yeah. And it can sound really negative and disparaging towards professional counseling. I don't, I don't think it is only a means to be I think it's just more of a lamentation, that we've lost the gifts in our society to be good friends to honor the asking good questions to be good listeners. And I I think I can associate that with spiritual direction as well as I think there's I think it's a good thing I think there's a need for it. But I think to the degree that it could rob us or or maybe it's a symptom of us not being having spiritual friendships yeah is a part of it. But I think even with healthy spiritual friendships, spiritual direction, or spiritual directors are helpful because they provide maybe like the pastoral role, sort of this this image or this standard that we can learn from that we can learn the wisdom from. Yeah. Is that makes sense totally included way of saying,

Vanessa Caruso: 10:35

you know, that's a that's such an interesting point. And thank you for answering it. I, when I hear spiritual direction, Shen or someone else's they are my like, kind of free association with it is someone who's kind of wholly good just sounds a little set apart ish. I think that's why I'm so sheepish sometimes about saying it because it sounds a little bit like yeah, a guru. Kind of feel. Yeah. And

Andy Withrow: 11:07

you want to avoid that connotation. Yeah. Because a lot of spiritual action isn't about is actually the opposite about having answers.

Vanessa Caruso: 11:15

It actually is the opposite. So the term is, is problematic. So I heard Susan Phillips, share this in a podcast, but you have her book in here. I remember you showed it to me the cultivated life. She said it's from and she's a spiritual director. And she talked about the origins of the term spiritual director, she was searching for, like, Where was this first named? A spiritual director? And she found like a monk, who was a librarian who said off, find out the answer, and he did find out the answer, and said, it goes back to John Clem, Marcus, Clem, MCIS, sixth seventh century monk, who was at the monastery at Mount Sinai. And there's the first use of the word spiritual director. And she said, It's the word Kubernetes. In Greek, and that Paul uses the same word to talk about a pilot of a ship, who stands next to the captain, so not the captain with not the one with the hands on the steering wheel. But the person who stands next to that person, and knows the area knows the terrain, and just says, Here's something to look out for, oh, we need to be careful of this. This is up ahead. So they're kind of like a navigator, who knows the area, but they never take control of the steering wheel and do it. So there's, there's a picture there, of spiritual direction, that's a lot more helpful than a guru, or someone who's going to tell you what to do, or a past, it's so different than a pastor even in that way. So I loved that picture of, of someone who stands next to the person who is staring their life. And they might not know the person's life inside and out. Of course, they won't, but they have studied spiritual formation, and Christian spirituality. So they know some of the patterns and some of the themes. And even if they don't know, let's say, the director is going through something that they've never experienced or even dreamed of experiencing. They don't know what the person should do, but they know how to help the person know. And they do that by making space with more silence than a typical conversation. So that that's a feature of spiritual direction is that there's a spaciousness to it because Richard Rohr says that a spiritual director, their job is to hold on to spirit. So they introduce the spirit as a livable, incredible part of the conversation. And they keep drawing the attention back to the spirit to say, Okay, let's make a little bit of space here. So that you can check in with yourself with God about what you just said. So that's one way that they, they help the person know how to know what to do. And the other main way is through evocative questions. So the the training of my spiritual direction is contemplative, evocative, so that contemplative peace means that we're going to look at things from a bunch of different angles, like you would go into an art gallery. And you don't just like whiz past each piece you like caulk your head a few times, and you look at it from a few different angles. That's the contemplative part. The evocative part is asking questions that draw forth deeper knowing. So those are the two main ways that a spiritual director comes alongside someone who is steric trying to steer their life in the direction that they want to go. How does that sit with you?

Andy Withrow: 14:58

Well, I mean, it's those sound like essential things in life. And in my sense is that you probably do that, or you do that in the capacity, quote, unquote, professional capacity, like you're trying to cultivate. You're trying to be as good as you can at this at this skill at this work. But that I know that that overflows into other parts of your life and relationships where you're not doing it, quote, unquote, professionally, totally, as a friend as probably as a wife and a mom. And so just again, that interesting thing about that dynamic between because everything here seems pretty like if you're gonna acknowledge as a spiritual reality, and that we need discernment for how to navigate those things, in that, and you're gonna go a step further and say, Well, according to the God of the Bible, all of life is spiritual. Because, yeah, he's created it all. And he's invested in connected to it all. Yeah, it's speaking into it, then, then these kinds of relationships are essential for us. Yeah. That I think, maybe at levels where you're seeking someone out to be in that specific role more formally, but then even in our everyday relationships with one another, yeah, to be that for each other. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 16:26

That goes back to what you were saying about therapists, as paid friends, or spiritual directors as paid spiritual friends. I do think the, I don't know the right word, like the way of spiritual direction is such a beautiful way to relate in everyday life. So that's one of the joys I have about spiritual direction is I just love immersing myself in that way of being which is very similar to ways of being in the that, that we learn in the church or in other settings. But there is a uniqueness there, with the kind of trust, like the trust that this person has all the tools they need, in order to discern what to do. And instead of me, fixing it for them, telling them what to do, telling them they shouldn't feel like that, or, you know, all those kind of instincts we have, that there's this collaborative way of relating with each other that that helps the knowing emerge.

Andy Withrow: 17:37

Yeah. And it seems like you're doing two things with spiritual direction, you're, you are teaching people to listen for themselves, as opposed to just telling them. And you're, you're acknowledging that you not only that, but you can't, you don't necessarily know what the answer is. Because it's not your life. Yes, that person's life. Yeah. And that's something that has to kind of be discerned maybe in community, but be discerned by by them, at the very least, and it can't be discerned it just for them. And I think I've I think that's what I've like from you. And I would say from Elaine and Michael Pountney, the time spent with all three of you. That's something that I've picked up on over time, it's like I've learned how to discern more, by spending time with these people by learning how they discern or ask good questions about discernment.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:38

That's great. So one other piece, I didn't say is that hopefully spiritual direction is more than just talk therapy about your spiritual life. And I don't mean that derogative Lee, but there is, there is the hope that spiritual direction would actually be a space that evokes a felt sense of God in the actual in the present moment. So instead of just kind of rehearsing what happened in your week, and being asked questions and responding to it, there is this kind of, it feels a little bit more charismatic and nature. This willingness, like someone might say, you know, I really should reconsider the way I tell that story. Or I wonder what it would be like to talk about that with God. I might hear that and say, Would you be okay, if we did it right now, you know, like, instead of doing it at some later date, like, Oh, that'd be good to think about but one day, the invitation in spiritual direction is like that, that that's exactly what this space is for, because it holds us accountable to paying attention to things we might not be able to pay attention to on our own. So there is A lot of permission in spiritual direction to, to practice and to try things. Or if someone, you know, experiences like this pain of gratitude for something in their life, instead of moving on from that really quickly and being like, That's so great. I might say, let's just take a moment and just let that gratitude be there as fully as it wants to be. And they'll close their eyes and just kind of savor the gratitude they have for this good thing that happened or something they didn't think was ever possible. And letting that bloom in real time is just one of the most amazing things instead of saying one day, I'll do that. So there's, there's a real focus on the present moment. And trusting that in our bodies, with our imaginations, feelings, emotions, we can have a felt sense of God's presence with us kind of healing us and you can kind of feel it happening. There's a lot of tears in spiritual direction, unexpectedly because of taking the time to do stuff like that.

Andy Withrow: 21:12

Yeah, it's good. And it reminds me of, like, we have DNase at our church, yeah, discipleship, nurture Academy groups, very small group, super small groups, like two to four people. And, and you help set up and design some of these. But where some of hopefully, some of these kinds of things that we're talking about happens kind of at that level, that'd be more mutual, because it is given take. So while you're talking about is like in a kind of a designated relationship, like I'm going to Vanessa, for spiritual direction, yeah. But again, whereas some of this can kind of happen in in the everyday life or the regular meetings with, with friends and people from the community. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 21:49

And that is one of my favorite things in life is that communal experience of something like group spiritual direction, and the DNA group, I am a part of and have been since being part of the table, we continue to meet once a month, and we do a group spiritual direction model. So we all do that together. And it's so incredibly meaningful, life giving. Okay, the next thing I wanted to share are the reasons why I go to spiritual direction, the main reasons. So I think the first reason would just be an accountability to tending to my spiritual life. You know, Stephen and I were just in that stage of life where we don't connect as much as we used to. So we have a discipline of trying to get out once a month to do something, just to look at each other, you know, and sometimes you like, finally get out to dinner. And you're just quiet and you're like, where do we even start? Like, what do what do we talk about, there's like, a shyness there, or a lack of connection. And spiritual direction does feel similar to me in that it's, uh, I've been going for seven years or something. And it's just a monthly way to, like, show up. Like, I sit in the chair, I take a deep breath. And then she, you know, she looks at me and says, Okay, where would you like to start today? And it's just like, an exhale of okay, I'm, I'm tending to my spiritual life, at least in this way. And it's kind of a way to get a pulse check again on me at least once a month, like Okay, where am I? What have I been noticing? Like, where is God in my life? Because the weeks go by so fast, and I might even I might even do my centering prayer, my examine and take communion every Sunday and still not. Not sit down and and notice that or integrate it and pay attention. Yeah. So that's my number one reason for going another reason I go is to one of one of the most compelling ideas for me, personally, is this idea of, of living with creative, courageous integrity. That was in a foreword to one of Howard Thurman's books. Vincent Harding described Thurman as living a life of creative, courageous integrity. And when I heard that I was like, that's, that's how I feel called to live with creativity, courage, and a life of integrity. And so spiritual direction is one of the primary arenas that I try to live out that sense of calling, like if this is if this really makes me come to life. How am I doing it? So it's a way to process that and check in about that and kind of stay on my path stay in my lane towards creative courageous integrity. And another reason I go is because I am in a position of spiritual leadership. Just By virtue of who I am, like, whatever I'm a part of, I tend to want to be part of facilitating, you know, conversations for people or leading something or talking about something. So there's an accountability there to, like, am I practicing what I preach? And how, how much vitality is there in my relationship with God, because I talk about it a lot. And so, I want integrity in that way. So I think spiritual direction is not necessarily for everyone in all seasons of life. But I do think it's especially important for anyone in a position of spiritual leadership. Because it's a, it's like looking in the mirror with someone else. And saying, where I'm actually where it like, it's a place to express doubts, anger, to confess, like, where do pastors confess? It's a powerful place of confession. And when those happen, it's like, you're on holy ground, you know? Yeah. Okay. I talked a lot.

Andy Withrow: 26:06

Good. No, I agree. I think I mean, I think the larger principle that we're talking about, everybody needs that. W, my conviction, right? The question of whether you need actually felt like a season of focus spiritual direction from, from someone who's, you know, that's, that's what they do. And, you know, that could be seasonal or discerning, depending on that. But yeah, I agree. I think I think I meet regularly with the Reverend Dr. Michael Pountney. Yeah. And a lot in a lot of this gets gets served in that way for me, because it's it's a helpful space to reflect and examine and, and have that accountability. But it's also it's, I mean, accountability. Sounds kind of like a negative, but it's yeah, it's more freeing than that. Yeah. Good point. Because space space to breathe spiritually. Yeah, that's a weird way to say it, but totally, yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 27:05

Yeah, there's a lot of exhaling for me in spiritual direction, so actually fits. Okay, a few ways. spiritual direction is different than other things. Like sometimes when I describe it, people think, oh, it's coaching. It's kind of like spiritual coaching. Or people that grew up in the church think, oh, that's what I do with my pastor. Like, yeah, when Andy meets with me, that's what it feels like. Some people think it sounds like counseling, they're like, oh, I can talk about whatever I want in counseling, and I have their undivided attention focuses on me pay them, it helps me become a more loving person in my actual relationships. So so many similarities there. A few of the differences are that it's not just for when you have a problem, or when you're in a transition, or when you're, you're stuck about something like, the idea behind spiritual direction is that it can be a spiritual discipline for your whole life. So even if you're not in a season of crisis, it's a space where you get to talk about the ordinary stuff that's too boring to talk about with your partner, or your friends. Like how much you love watching the tree outside your window, go through its seasons that might not come up in everyday life, but it's if spiritual direction is the regular practice stuff, that little stuff, the unimportant stuff can come up. It's very different than anything in the pastoral counseling arena, because it's specifically with someone who is outside of your community. So there's not the multiple agendas at play there. Which is really freeing. It's, of course, it's good to be in relationship, and to talk about someone who knows your life and your church community. So there's a benefit there. But there also is a benefit of not having any dual relationships, where the spiritual director is not going to be hurt, offended, or weirded out by something that you're saying about someone they know or about a community that they know. So it really frees you, to be honest about what's going on for you. Yeah. So that's key is that freedom from dual relationships, or just, you know, I started going to spiritual direction when I just had, I just was part of a very tight knit church community, very active. Yet I still wanted more. And I didn't know what to do with that. And if I tried to talk about it with my pastor, there was always this sense, like, we'll do more here and how can we meet your need better? And so I was self conscious about naming some of the stuff I was uncomfortable with because I didn't even know what I thought about it. So spiritual direction was a place that helped me process outside of that So far, so good still, that's great. Keep going. Okay. So okay, we I want I only want to go for a few more minutes. So what would be important to say? Like I said, a lot of what a spiritual director does.

Andy Withrow: 30:18

Where you got. So just to let listeners in? Yeah, we're about halfway through

Vanessa Caruso: 30:24

my, my three pages. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 30:27

So we could we don't have to, we could come back to this and do a part two, this is the goal for this episode was to kind of do an intro into what is spiritual direction, that's the thing. So but we can make it a two parter we're, we normally release every two weeks. But we'll be back next week. And so maybe we could do this kind of back to back.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:46

That'd be great. Quicker. Yeah. And then we can talk about what a session actually are, like some of the nuts and bolts of it, and how to find one which are important. So I think something I want to say just for the last part, is kind of some of the arguments against spiritual direction. No one's had an argument with me personally, but I have them in my own head. Even I won't go into that. But so one of I heard somebody say, once, you know, his spiritual direction, just for rich, white women, because that those are the only way to talk about it. Which so stung to hear that because of the truth of it. There, it does feel like there's a privilege around spiritual direction. And I'm a little bit embarrassed by how popular it is

Andy Withrow: 31:43

privileged because of what because of time and money. Yeah, it's because resources. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 31:47

and there's just a lot of middle class to rich white women who have been trained in spiritual direction. So that's a huge in the last 10 years, you know, there's been like, a huge boom, yeah. So. And there's like an Yvan evangelical nature to it in the sense of like, wanting to convert people to it. It reminds me of the Enneagram, like, you know, over the last five years, it's like, so much talk about the Enneagram. Like, like, we all use their numbers. And, oh, you don't know the anagram, oh, my gosh, you're definitely up for that, or whatever. So the popularity of it, the niche pneus of it. Just there's something, there's something true there that I just want to admit that. I think it is that it is problematic. And I also own that it's, I never knew what I wanted to do with my life, I could never find like, my career and spiritual direction is definitely what makes me come alive. So I'm so passionate about it and grateful for it. And yet, there's a lot of work to do around how it's talked about perceived, presented. Because there, Barbara Peacock has this great book called Soul care and the African American practice kind of reclaiming the roots of spiritual direction, in the African American experience, and it does go back to the Desert Fathers and mothers, and, you know, Bible times, but it was more of an oral thing. And so there's this new wave around it that I just want to acknowledge that another critique is that it's for introverts or contemplatives, you know, like people that really like to like talk about themselves and like, belly button gaze and stuff like that. Which I can see that too, like people, some people think like, Oh, I'm just too extroverted or active, or I care too much about the real world. I don't No one's ever said that. But that's one of the arguments in my head is that it just kind of insulates rather than frees people to become more loving people in the real world and in real relationships. So those are some of the arguments. I think it's just helpful to name like, if you kind of have a connotation about that you're not alone.

Andy Withrow: 34:10

Or we're gonna end on that negative

Vanessa Caruso: 34:11

connotation. No, I don't know.

Andy Withrow: 34:16

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what I that's, that's interesting to hear you bring it up. I don't know what I think about like said I hadn't, I guess hasn't thought about it that much before but it does kind of make sense. I think they're, I mean, the x I could see the introvert thing, the navel gazing I think it's a danger of a lot of things though. It's like anything could become that you kind of tendency but but the other side of it is if you never if you're never looking at your internal life. Yeah. That's that's a recipe for disaster. Yeah. All of not just in religious world in this in the secular world would largely agree with that. If you're if you're, if you've just live in external life. In disasters around the corner, you there needs to be there needs to be a cultivation of the interior ordered world. And, and maybe there's all different ways of thinking through that different, you know different religions will take that different ways. But they'll all focus to some degree on that important facet. So just thinking about the extrovert, one that that's extroverts probably needed a bit more just because a tendency to maybe to be live in the extroverted, extroverted selves. Yeah. I don't know what to say about the rich, right. That's, that's interesting. Yeah. And maybe that that is, as you said, Go. That's cause for some important reflection. I think it is. What what is that about? What does it mean? Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:49

I think it is, it's worth reflection. So maybe I'll end on a more poll, you know,

Andy Withrow: 35:56

you've read it as home. Well, this

Vanessa Caruso: 35:58

is kind of positive, negative. Have you heard the Top Five Regrets of the Dying? There's been around a few years ago by a palliative care nurse to just collected what she's heard over the years, the top five regrets the dining brawny wears her name. So I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others, expected for me. I wish I hadn't worked so much. I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends. And I wish that I had let myself be happier. Those are really interesting things for a palliative care nurse to hear over and over again in different ways, during people's last days, and that's compelling to me. So there is maybe something dark but not thinking about. What would it be like to live now with some of that in mind? And how do I do that? Yeah, that's what spiritual direction and spiritual disciplines in general and the spiritual formation life is about to me. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 37:09

Yeah, it strikes me there's a hole it just in my mind is just this this chasm in us. I mean, God has made us in with, with such deep longings and desires, and such a deep internal world that I think can be scary and intimidating. For us. It's yeah, so we tend to live out here. And so but, but to have some sense of God calling us to that, and to want to move into that space and, and see where the Spirit is and what the Spirit is saying. Alright, well, let's do let's see, part two. Part Two next time. Yeah. Let's get started. I told you.

Vanessa Caruso: 37:57

You knew it. And he told me he was like, maybe this is too Thanks. It was like no way. We got it in a half an hour. Well,

Andy Withrow: 38:03

I kept I did talk

Vanessa Caruso: 38:04

a little bit of our fight. Fight. All right, well, good start. We'll keep standing by everybody.