Vanessa Caruso: 0:01

Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life Hey, Vanessa, Hi, Andy.

Andy Withrow: 0:20

How you doing? Great. You back? Yeah, it's it's been. I don't know how long it's been for everybody else out there. But it's been like, three weeks or a month. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, things going on. Yeah. It's hard to find time to get into bear with me studios, just where we are right now. And we're going to do part two of the sower in the seed, also known as parable of the sewers, or sorry, parable, the court types of soil he right, or Parable of the Sower, everyone, like I say, Fine, all those are great. But just to recap a little bit from last time. So last time, we talked, we kind of big picture and now we're going to kind of zero in on the actual four types of soil kind of the progression that the parables take, or this parable takes. And, and last time, we talked about this idea that God, maybe God is more of a talker, than we tend to think he is chatting a lot of our Yeah, a lot of our human experiences, can can often feel quiet or absent. But the sower and maybe the Bible presents a different picture of God as one who likes to talk a lot. And I don't know if we don't think we tease this part out last time. But I had been thinking that God does not like to do fireworks so much as he likes to talk. And maybe argument propensity is to want more of the fireworks display. Nice. Meaning like the signs in the wonders that obviously hit you over the head stuff. Yeah. And I was thinking that maybe that we liked that, because it takes less energy to watch a fireworks display than it does to listen to somebody. Talk and try to understand them. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's a little harder. It takes more energy. Yeah. Anyway. So that was one, because remember, the sower sows the seed everywhere, like just reckless with the siege, selling it in, not very good places, having strategic expect things to crop up. Clearly not worried about limited resources, in terms of the seed, right? Got to talk her. Second, we talked about God's word being hidden, but at work. So not just God isn't just at work in ways that we get to see but often most at work in ways we don't get to see. So Jesus says in Luke 17, the kingdom is coming in ways that are not observable, which is just sort of a straightforward way of saying what I think he's saying here in the parable of the sower. Man, God's Kingdom is active and at work right now, in ways that you cannot see. I love that. And then finally, we wrapped up last time with despite it being hidden or not, at work behind the scenes, God's word is powerful and highly productive. So it's hard, hard to see. In seed form. impossible to miss? At the when it when it comes up, impossible to miss. Yes, yes. Wilderness. Yeah. Easy to miss than impossible to miss.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:35

Right? Tricky. So

Andy Withrow: 3:41

this one, we want to focus on the four types of soil and three of these types of soil, talk about obstacles to this part, like for all of the potency of God's word, there are things that can resist it, yes. Or keep it from being fruitful, which is kind of a radical concept. It is, well, we'll get into in a minute, because this is God's word, and it's highly potent and powerful. And so what are, what are the things that that can be obstacles to this to this active agent? And it kind of leads to this other question or is, or maybe this other question kind of helps set up this parable. If this, if this is God's words, like if Jesus is teaching and preaching, in the gospels, God's words in Jesus is God's man. God's Son, Messiah. Why does it feel like in the Gospel stories, it's not working? Right, the disciples constantly don't get it. He's meeting up with resistance. Or we might ask an RD if we're Christian or even if we're not like, Okay, well if this is if Christianity is true, if g He says is the real deal? And legit, then why does it sometimes or often feel like Christianity isn't working, especially in our little neck of the world? neck of the woods or part of the world? Why does it seem like it's losing ground? And maybe on its way out? Because that's what it can feel like to a lot of people sometimes. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:18

Right.

Andy Withrow: 5:21

So, we already know part of the answer from last time is that it God's word sown does not look that impressive. It's a small thing. It's just a word. It's not fireworks. It's not big and fancy. It's just a seed. And as soon as it's sewn or spoken, you don't see it. It's gone. Yeah, you don't see it anymore. For all the world, it looks like it's not doing anything, or how's that done anything? I don't know, if it's working, is it growing? What's it doing any isn't doing anything, I can't see it. So but then we're gonna get into some other elements. So it's not just that it's invisible. It's just that there are things that we can do to actively resist God's Word in our lives and in our world. So instead of God's Kingdom taking root in and around us in our lives, where peace and justice and things about the kingdom that we've talked about before it God's presence to us transformation, goodness, mercy, where those things could take root and grow up, and transform and sprout, come to fruition in our lives, and our relationships, and our world and our city, all this great stuff. Instead of that happening, the word gets taken away, or it shrivels up or it gets choked out. And we don't see any transformation or fruit. What do you think it's so far?

Vanessa Caruso: 6:46

Gosh, so many things. I mean, you're going to talk about this, but why are there so many obstacles? If this is supposed to be such a potent? Against all odds, fruitful beyond belief? Planting or sowing, you know? So hopefully, you can answer that one.

Andy Withrow: 7:10

Yeah, hopefully we can. It's yeah, that's, that's, uh, that is, I think, to really understand the, the significance of that is pretty is a pretty big deal. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 7:24

that's a big,

Andy Withrow: 7:25

that's a big question,

Vanessa Caruso: 7:26

existential question. It's kind of a way of saying why do bad things happen? Yeah. It's a version of that.

Andy Withrow: 7:33

So why does God allow it to happen? Because if he's so powerful, His Word is so power. Yeah. And it's such a good thing? For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 7:39

Why can it get shoveled and choked? Or snatched so easily? Yeah. There's that. But I do love the hidden part, like, the reality that there's something at work behind the scenes, I find that so hopeful to trust that God is always communicating and working like there's some kind of renewal. happening. Behind the scenes, Howard Thurman talks about the will to wholeness, that's kind of in the fabric of our bodies. It's relevant during a time of pandemic. He just, you know, says in his book, however, many decades ago, that it's actually amazing how many diseases our bodies fight off, and how few infections we actually succumb to, by getting a cold, you know, much less how many we actually die to write. So he just says, it's remarkable that there's this will to wholeness in our bodies, always at work, and that there's a will to wholeness in the world, and he says, That's expressive of God's God's force of love that's always in the world. And so he kind of says, wouldn't it be great if we could live each day, relaxed at our nerve center, because we trust this will to wholeness? And it will, if we could do that it would allow us to live with quiet enthusiasm is his phrase, and I just love that quiet, quiet enthusiasm, which to me belies that idea that that God is always at work. There's always renewal behind the scenes if we have ears to hear, and eyes to see if we need some good news. That it's there. We don't have to move countries to find it or change jobs or something like that. That's what I mean is that the accessibility is within our grasp. Yeah, but it might we might not think that because it's not super obvious. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 9:43

Yeah, not what we would expect. There's a counter intuitiveness to it. But like with the other parables like the treasure hidden in the field, or the Pearl of Great Price, there's this. There's this accessibility to it. That is you maybe unexpected in some ways, like it's there in the field and he didn't, wasn't expecting to find it just found treasure.

Vanessa Caruso: 10:08

That's I've never thought about that parable like that. Just the discovery of something beautiful right under your nose or under your feet that you didn't expect. That sounds like the the journey of our lives is kind of discovering Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 10:23

And that the we'll get to this in this. When we get to that parallel with the the one right next with appropriate price goes the other directions like keep the merchant was searching for he knew what he's looking for. And then he found it. So it's like Jesus put these two back to back on purpose, like the treasure the king of something that you might not be looking for. And you can stumble over it and unexpectedly find this great treasure. Or it's also like this merchant who was like he knew he knew find pearls when he found it. It's like, oh, yeah, that's the one. Oh,

Vanessa Caruso: 10:55

I like that. Both of those are there next to each other? I can't wait to get to that one.

Andy Withrow: 10:59

I know. We're getting ahead of ourselves. So yeah, so let's let's jump into this then. So this is Matthew 13. He gives the parable of the sower. He talks about why parables then he comes back to the parables or in verse 18. He explains it. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart is was sown along the path. So it's the first sowing, it's on the path. And the first obstacle is understanding when anyone does not understand it. So this presents a little problem for us, because it just seems so not like God or Jesus. You're like, sorry, you're too stupid. You don't get it. You don't get it. You know, your IQ isn't high enough.

Vanessa Caruso: 11:49

I don't like that one. You don't? Yeah, you don't like that? No, you don't understand it.

Andy Withrow: 11:55

Yeah, so it doesn't sound right. And it isn't. So Jesus, let's say one, two says to enter the kingdom, you must become like a child. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:07

Right, and the foolishness of God.

Andy Withrow: 12:11

So what's going on? One way to understand this is to know that that knowledge and understanding in the biblical setting has to do with personal knowledge, like an experiential knowledge of, of, of something, or someone. So Isaiah, who's often in the background of the Gospels, he's in the background here, he's just been quoted in the previous paragraph. So he's in the background of the stories. And he, he uses the same term in the Septuagint, versus a Greek version of the Old Testament, the same term for understand and what he meant by it. So here's something from the first chapter of his Isaiah, he says this, The ox knows its owner, and the donkey, its masters crib. But Israel has not known me. And the people have not understood me. So he's this, this relational knowledge sort of dimension to what's happening here. is understood in Isaiah one here is paralleled with, with known, which here means personal knowledge, not intellectual understanding. So it's kind of like our relationships. Yeah. Don't you know me, Vanessa? Yes. I thought you knew me. Right. Right. That kind of you don't understand. stand

Vanessa Caruso: 13:25

me. Yeah. Not like you don't intellectually follow me. Yeah. Yes. But you're not grasping with what you know of me. You're not grasping.

Andy Withrow: 13:35

It's not because we're too dumb, is because maybe we're not invested in the relationship. Right, or we don't want to hear it. We've got some internal resistance to acknowledging what what the other person is about or what they're saying. There's internal resistance at work. And I think this fits this passage, because that's literally what Jesus was just talking about in the previous paragraph, which we haven't gotten to yet. We'll try to get to that with with one of these episodes on the purpose of parables where Jesus talks about why he's speaking in parables. But this is the this is the setting. There's internal resistance to what's to who this person is and what's being said. So this is the seed that fell on the hard path. This is the Word of God that falls on a hardened or resistant part, oh, man, he doesn't want to hear it. or participate in fast forward to Isaiah seven from Isaiah one, where God is warning the king of Israel at that time not to fear the nations but to rather trust God. So he's talking about these other nations. The head of Ephrem is Samaria. The head of Samaria is the son of vermillion. So he's talking about the country, the city and in the king, if you do not believe, neither shall you understand. So profit is pairing, understanding with belief or trusting loyalty? If you don't trust me, you're not going to understand me.

Vanessa Caruso: 15:08

Trust is a good replacement for understand in that original part of the parable, I feel like then

Andy Withrow: 15:16

yeah, like, as trusting as a prerequisite to comprehending, understanding? Yeah. Right. If we don't we have these in our relationships, we don't trust one another. Yeah, then it's hard. It can be hard to understand. Yeah, to wrap our minds around it. Where someone else is coming from why they're doing the things they're doing.

Vanessa Caruso: 15:39

So do you I relate with this, like, I know, this is true about me internal, the idea of of being resistant to something or, like kind of a hardness to my demeanor, or something like that in relationships. But can you think of what this looks like? Like what what does it look like? For Andy? When times when you're like, on that hard path? If that's the right way to even interpret the parable?

Andy Withrow: 16:13

Like in personal relationships? Yeah. Yeah, but I do know this, I mean, that. So my experience, and I don't know if I can think of a specific one. But in general is when I work, like, when there's maybe strain in a relationship, or if something isn't working out because of behaviors, or I just don't, I'm not on the same page with this person. I know that going back to the roots of, okay, if I care about this person I want to try to understand in that usually moves me towards work, because sometimes they just don't want to do the work of understanding or it's you can think of I mean, a great example, for a lot of us is political differences. Like we have our political leanings, and we have a hard time understanding someone who's on a different political divide. But if there's somebody we care about, then you start to Okay. Can I see it from their perspective? Yeah. But it's because of the caring part. Right, and the investment in a relationship part. If I don't force myself to go in that direction, then I'm not going to do the work of, okay, maybe I need Can I read with a bit more charity? Or can I do a little bit more work to try to understand where they're coming from?

Vanessa Caruso: 17:38

Yeah, that's a great example.

Andy Withrow: 17:43

Yeah. So So I say, pairs, this understanding with this trusting loyalty? Yeah. overlapping with that personal type of knowledge that we're talking about? Yeah. But it adds this dimension of commitment, right, I'm committed to this person, therefore, I work harder to understand. Or if I know them, well, if I'm committed to them in a way, where I've gotten to know them, well, then it's it becomes easier for me, oh, I unders. I see why she's seeing it this way. Or he's saying those sorts of things.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:16

Yeah. Right.

Andy Withrow: 18:21

So Jesus is talked about in the previous paragraph that we haven't gotten to yet, because it's the purpose of parables. He's told them that you are His disciples, he's just talking to His disciples there. So he goes away from the crowds, they say, Why are you speaking in parables? And he says, basically, you are all insiders. You're with me? You know, me, you're learning to trust me that's worth quite a lot, actually, more than you think probably. Because without that, believing trust, it's actually impossible to comprehend what I'm talking about. It's absolutely impossible to comprehend the kingdom of God. Maybe because it's so different. Yeah. So it's so counterintuitive to the way that our world works. That that would take a lot of trust. To see things so differently. I think there's gotta be something like that going on. Yeah. And these passages. And the Word of God cannot grow in you, it can't even penetrate the hardness of your heart. That's what's amazing, though, it gets back to what we're kind of talking about. For God's word is so powerful. Like we're just getting to the biblical worldview here. Genesis one, God's word responsible for all of creation, literally everything we see, and touch and feel and know. Right? Light land, heavens, earth stars, sun, moon, fish, animals, humans, all but by the power of God's Word. So in the Bible says, By God's word, he raises up and opposes kingdoms

Vanessa Caruso: 19:55

is the same sewing Word,

Andy Withrow: 19:58

Word will not return empty but will will accomplish its work and Isaiah is like you're not finding something more powerful in the biblical worldview than the Word of God what He says happens

Vanessa Caruso: 20:12

except here where it's very precarious are very susceptible to

Andy Withrow: 20:19

yes obstacles well I mean even in this whole parable the words ultimately going to succeed with this ridiculous return on investment but yet to your point, God invested the human heart that seat of our will and our loyalty don't think emotions that was the kidneys in the, in the, in their worldview, heart was will and loyalty okay. Yeah, belief in loyalty and intellect as well. So he got invested the human heart with such dignity and power that he allowed it to not be overwritten by his word that it can resist and even the power of God's word we're allowed to resist it God has given it the power to resist it if we choose radical I think that's just an important point because it does get back to you why so much was why so much evil in the world? Why is there so much dissidents? And why does God allow it? He's whether you agree with him or not. He's invested the human heart with with a great with that ability to resist like that was important to him. And you start thinking of well, what's the alternative? Well, then you start to lose some things, don't you in terms of your human dignity and freedom? Yeah, that time God feel that God prioritized, I'm going to preserve that. And we're really going to let them choose even though it's going to cost a lot it's gonna be super painful and hard. I'm not going to game this from the start. In other words, just say, well, I'll just override I'll just press the override button if I don't like how things are going in that isn't that nuts? Yeah, it is. So kind of gives you a scary sense of our own our own power in that sense to resist such goodness and beauty and kingdom stuff. Yeah. He wants our trust and loyalty and he's not going to cheat to get it he's put that limit on his own power in this in this scenario. Because you think well, God can do anything why does he just you know, yeah, x y Zed. You know? I don't know. It's like well, but if he's he's he wants to preserve this thing over here and give us true autonomy in that sense then he's got to do it a different way he can't just strong arm us into the kingdom

Vanessa Caruso: 23:04

yeah

Andy Withrow: 23:08

Wow doesn't want to fill his kingdom with people who are like I don't really want to be here so this is the word that falls on us when we resist when we refuse to come to Jesus interesting loyalty. We fail to know Him in His saving power and understand Him in His teaching on God's good kingdom. That's it that's what I wanted to say about that first one.

Vanessa Caruso: 23:35

That's all I think about I kind of always pictured the with the snatching. I always pictured like a crow.

Andy Withrow: 23:45

Yeah, you're right. And we didn't really talk about that

Vanessa Caruso: 23:47

though. Does it have a burden? Oh, no wonder

Andy Withrow: 23:51

does the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart?

Vanessa Caruso: 23:57

Yeah, it feels like it feels pretty exposed, just like my connotations with you know, this soil or this place that this seed is sown. That it's some

Andy Withrow: 24:09

Yeah, if it's not received it will be taken from you. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:14

And now I'm hearing that consent that you're saying God prioritize says like our capacity to consent or resist. So there's this like mechanism of consenting that didn't happen between the soil and this seed. And so there it was left exposed to being snatched. So the question, one of the questions would be, what does it look like to receive or consent even if we're not there yet? Like even if we do feel resistance, or confusion or something It made me think that we've talked about this prayer before, but I want to want prayer is such a great option. When we're not there yet, you know, yeah, like, I want to want to trust you in this life decision coming up. But I'm pretty scared because I feel like I'm gonna be asked to do something I don't want to do or whatever. The profession there is,

Andy Withrow: 25:24

right? And if yes, but I mean, the whole Bible just puts such a priority on our humility. Right? Yeah. Because it's that's kind of overlap with that posture of our of our heart.

Vanessa Caruso: 25:40

Yeah. I feel like we go on to the next one, because more might come about this one kind of in, in relationship with the other ones.

Andy Withrow: 25:52

Yes, that's good. So that's the first one, it was the seat on the path. Resistance to God's words. The second one has to do with with the root system. So the stuff that's happening underground. So think of roots as conduits of water and nutrients. The stronger the roots, the stronger the plant. Jesus warns next that even those who do receive the word that is the trust and believe they can still struggle if they do not have roots within themselves. In other words, it appears that God's word can be received and not kept. Soon as things get hard because of the word, because of what was said, or what was sown. That person withers up where they fall away. So this often gets translated flips, translated, tribulation, the Greek word is flips. This means crushing pressure is a better word than tribulation, yeah, crushing pressure, it's a lot easier to imagine. It's not just like what we might think of if you've heard of being persecuted for your faith. Yeah, that's probably definitely part of it. But it's a lot bigger and broader than that. It's the pressure that comes when two opposing kingdoms collide. So think about the goodness of God's kingdom, and coming in its values and what it's about coming into collision with the kingdom, that of this world that were a part of our, our cultural moment. And so I would argue that gets us here in North America, as sure as it gets anybody in the world might look very different. Feel it very differently. But there is a cost to your trusting obedience to Jesus. We live in a world in a kingdom that is definitely hostile and at odds with the kingdom of God on some significant points. So if that's true, then we need something that sustains us that feeds us that strengthens us, in the midst of this collision, this crushing pressure. So these roots that conduits of of life and nutrients, and life sustaining water, it reminds me of John 15, where Jesus uses another image for this similar idea, I am the vine, he says, and you are the branches Remain in me and you will bear much fruit. So I think we're meant to see these roots as habits of devotion. means by which we remain IN JESUS, how do we stay connected to this source of life. Paul says in First Timothy, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil or a root of all kinds of evil. So you kind of get this thing that helps the negative image but it helps with this idea of why our roots in that image, their their love or devotion to one thing. That's the root of all kinds of other things. If you are loving and devoted towards one thing that serves as a as a input that can lead to all sorts of other fruit, whether it's good fruit or bad fruit. So if the root speaks of a devotion to God in Jesus, it leads to all sorts of fruit. We've seen this parable, but the roots must remain strong, or the crushing pressure of climbing kingman's will be too much for us, overwhelm us, one of us feel that. So we can think of the habits of Christian devotion, community and worship. Prayer, whether it's alone or with others, regular reading and study of God's words written to us in the Bible, meditation reflection on on the Bible or listening for God's voice in our lives. We've talked about A lot of accountability and mutual encouragement and Christian community. Just to name a very few. There's tons of them. Yeah. Right. And they can look different. So these practices lay down roots that connect us to the source of life, and sustainability in the midst of the crushing pressure that we find ourselves in. So, this is one way to think about overcoming, if we think about these in terms of obstacles, okay, there's humility and trust, there's habits of devotion, how do I make sure I'm, I'm plugged into or connected in these ways, to this to this source of life to Jesus. Knowing that, if we can overcome these obstacles, then seeds just grow. So it's not like we have to work hard at the growing of the thing. We just have to find the practices and the positions and the postures, and maybe one part imagination, of sting of just staying connected at the roots, which I think is an easier way for me to think about it. Yeah. Instead of going to the gym to workout. Which I don't do Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a putting myself in a position of space. I mean, there's some overlap with that, because that is a habit. And it is this is building a certain kind of muscle. Yeah, but it's not a it's not I need to make the fruit grow. It's like, yeah, will take care of itself. If you just, if you just work these habits, simple habits, I think, into our daily or weekly lives, or monthly lives, or whatever, whatever the case may be.

Vanessa Caruso: 31:53

Yeah, that's,

Andy Withrow: 31:54

I know, you've got some thoughts on

Vanessa Caruso: 31:55

Oh, yeah, I do. Where do I start? When you talked about, you know, this soil. So the previous soil is kind of about receiving consenting to accepting like, there's a hardness and it doesn't actually unfold the seed. And then it can get snatched up. And then you said about this one, it's possible to receive it, but not to keep it. And that made me think of the idea of observance. You know, in Deuteronomy, when it talks about the Shamal, like Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, love your neighbor as yourself, and talk about these things when you walk on the road. And when you lie down, it uses the word observe somewhere in there, you know, observe these things, which reminds me of a holiday, how we observe holidays. So the idea of keeping something and observing something just reminds me of that way of being human, where we need the set apart, times within the year, within the week within the day, where we observe what it is that we ascribe to, or believe or love. And it's not like a once and done thing, you don't want time in your life, you have Christmas, and that and then you're good to go. You know, it's like a regular part of our lives to observe Christmas. So that's one way for me to think about the roots. And this tension between the effort required to make fruit grow versus the effort required to create space, so that we don't fill up our lives with the things that the kingdom of the world, you know, fills up our lives with. Stephen, my husband is reading a book by his favorite author Johann Hari, called something about focus, like losing focus or finding focus or, but Johann Hari is a journalist and has written these really unique. Or he talks about things that are very common, like when the first one is about addiction. Second book was about depression, and he sees them from these really unique vantage points. So this one is about our inability to stay focused. And the context switching and that happens so much. So this is a this is not talking about, like how to be a Christian, but just from the episode I listened to describing the book, he talks about, you know, the need for mind wandering spaces in our lives, like walks where our mind wanders, instead of having all the input that we have this is reminded me of our Cal Newport Naomie idea with technology, how it things just are coming into us so often, like we're working on something and then we get a text and we just think like I'm gonna check the text, no big deal. Oh, you know, I might need to know something. But the cost of check, checking that text, and returning to our focus is, is a lot bigger than we think it is. And so his idea of these mind wandering spaces preserving them, that reminds me a lot of the idea of discipleship or spiritual formation. It, it doesn't seem like a lot of effort. It's a different kind of effort. It is effort to preserve for him to preserve space in his month, and in his week to have these mind wandering walks where integration happens, inspiration happens, problem solving happens. That's what it's like in spiritual formation. It's the effort to create space. Yeah, where that kind of integration, internalization can happen. So we don't do that, that big work like the heavy lifting, but we can. Sometimes we stumble upon it in the field, and it just happens to us and we weren't trying at all. But overall, the main invitation I feel like to us as humans is are you going to create some

Andy Withrow: 36:08

space? Yeah, it's the it's the Sabbath observance. Yeah. I mean, that was one day and seven. But the principle is like, creating these protecting these spaces. So you like a bird sanctuary or wildlife urge, you know, refuge or something where these things are not allowed. You can't hunt here. Yeah, don't bring your guns here. This is a safe place to kind of preserve. Yeah, wildness. And, and I think we have the ability to do the same thing with our day or our week, or just fine. Okay, what's Where's where do I get called my half hour walk, and just without my phone or things that will tend to distract me? And just think, or just meditate and reflect on one truth about who God is, and, and, and who he is, in my life, what he's doing, or whatever the thing is, yeah. And these that I think part of the trick of these things is they're not, they're not measured, they're not super measurable in and of themselves. Yeah, they're not, they're not the fruit. And we tend to feel good about our fruit. And I think we, I think one of the mistakes that we make, or a common mistake that we can make in our spiritual lives or in our lives, don't forget, I said, the word spiritual in our lives is that we try to grow upside down trees, were the we're trying to get our sense of worth identity from our fruit. We're trying to use our fruit as our source of who we are, but fruit is for others. And when we mess that up, then it's like we're trying to force fruit to grow. We're trying to like really sell our fruit to ourselves as much as anybody else. Say, I'm good because of this fruit. Whereas the biblical image is, from Psalm one and all over the place is, and here in Matthew 13. Is the roots are hidden underground. But those is that's our source. And they're not very measurable. They're not things that people see. Yeah. But that's where we get our identity. And that's where we, that's what tells us who we are, and whether our fruit turns out good or not. And so the more we can learn to forget about the fruit, don't care about the fruit. You don't even let your left don't know what your right hand is doing since Jesus and when you're doing your good deeds. Yeah, like, don't even care about it. Yeah. Focus, invest in the roots. That's where your work is. Yeah. And it's for because this is my life for a preacher that is spending time where nobody sees you, doing the study, the preparation, getting to go deeper into the Bible, because that's what part of what your job is what you have time for. But no one measures that I'm not filling out any time sheets to say I did this this week, and showing it off to people. It's just hidden somewhere, and it will, it will come out or not over the course of time, but you can. But that's true of all our lives, isn't it to be a preacher or a pastor, for that to be true in terms of your own fruitfulness in the lives of your family, or your friends or your co workers or anyone you come into contact with will what is the nature of the fruit that you will have on display? Yeah. And where are you getting? What's your source to get that fruit because that's gonna make all the difference? Yeah. That's a difficult shift for us. I think there is not getting our worth and identity and enoughness from What fruit we're offering, it's hidden, it's deeper underground. In this parable, it's what's happening underneath. And where am I? Where am I getting my life source from?

Vanessa Caruso: 40:11

There is something freeing about it, too. It's difficult because it's really counter intuitive.

Andy Withrow: 40:16

Difficult because it's not measure, but it's also freeing because it's not measured. Right? It reminds me of this just for me, Yeah, yours just be in this God moment, or this, this personal thing? Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:29

It also reminds me of people, friends who have a big presence on social media for their work, you know, or their, whatever they do. And just the weight they talk about of, of needing to always be looking for content. You know, they're in their, at their children's lives and the craft they did in the walk on the Sabbath. It's kind of hard, it seems like to differentiate between, am I doing this because of the content it will give me? And what I'll be able to post because of it, or am I doing it kind of as an end in itself? Because, you know, I remember Josh talking about that on sabbatical, like taking pictures, gorgeous pictures in the Yukon, not to use them in a sermon or anything just for his life and his enjoyment, and his sense of vocation as a person. So there's it that sounds like a crushing weight, when there is a lot of confusion there between the fruit like the content and motivation, or however you say that. And it reminds me of the last episode on the sower. And one takeaway for me was, was like, I could make so many more mistakes. Something about this makes me think, there, it's okay to make mistakes. Like, the consequences don't feel it, the stakes don't feel as high. And when we're talking about it like this, that sounds fraying too,

Andy Withrow: 42:01

when you're trying to curate your fruit, for example, you can't afford to have one that's shriveled or when you're talking about root systems. They're gnarled they're all over the place. It doesn't matter what they look like, yeah. How far down? Can we go? How far out? Can we go? Yeah. And just take in what is on offer. And what's on offer is nutrient rich, soil with everything you need, and more like, the image is abundance all through the Bible, God has more than enough for us if we're willing to invest in this part. Right? This part that doesn't get measured, not just not just the measuring that what do other people think about me? Oh, that's a big one, especially for us nines, but, but also just what am I? What am I doing with my life? What am I producing, even even for me, or for my family, or that sort of thing? It's like, those are really good, right things and good things to be concerned about. But the principle remains, if we're not investing in the root system, it doesn't matter. It almost doesn't matter how hard we're working on some level. It's, it's you're not you're gonna it's gonna be a poverty mentality. Like I can't get enough can't do enough.

Vanessa Caruso: 43:19

It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No,

Andy Withrow: 43:21

it's It's back to he has his back to Jesus saying, seek this thing. First, seek those clothes, food shut, you know, all those things are important. But if you seek this thing, first kingdom of God first. All these things will be added to you as well. That was a radical promise that I can't make to you. Yeah. But I'm thankful that I didn't. Yes, that's what that's what Jesus is saying is on offer here. I know it's risky. And but at some point, I say, Okay, God, I'm gonna Okay. Okay. I'm gonna trust you with that. And I'm gonna start to build in spaces to work on my root system.

Vanessa Caruso: 44:08

Good, Andy. Okay, one idea before we move on to the next one. This is the last obstacle coming up. So when I was thinking about what does it mean to observe? To keep the word or observe it like a holiday, it reminded me that I go in and out of these seasons of trying centering prayer, you know, which is like, a way of praying silently. So not coming up with any words or anything. But setting a timer for 20 minutes and saying, I'm just going to be here. I'm not going to try to focus on the fruit or if I feel good from this, or if I have good thoughts during this or if I stay blank during this. The idea is not to stay blank. So I've been doing this for years and there's just different seasons of how In a different kind of metaphor for what that's like, because it, I just know, it's good for me. So there's something about it that is very good for me. Probably my perfectionism because it's a very like, there's nothing to do. So last week that I've been doing it, what's come to mind, as I'm sitting there and just returning, like, every time I realize I'm off wandering, thinking about something I need to do or worried about something, or rehashing a conversation in my head, and I just come back to, alright, I'm just sitting in God's presence. What's come up for me is thinking, what I'm doing here silently, with my eyes closed facing the window facing the sun, is I'm just letting God have a little bit of airtime. Because the rest of my day, God doesn't really get a word in edgewise, in a way, I don't actually believe that. But as soon as I get into my to do list and on email, and working on stuff, and having a kid and being with neighbors, it feels like this is this is the little moment in my day, where I'm going to say, I do actually believe that the reality of God is the most real thing ever. It's not gonna seem like that. For if an alien was here, you know, they would think like, What are you talking about your emails very real, it's like calling to your texts are very real, you need to eat, it's very real, what you're gonna do with your life is very real. But that 20 minutes of just returning silently, my attention and saying, I'll give you some airtime like that this is this 20 minutes is for the reality of God, to observe it. I can't do anything, but just observe it and hope that that affects the rest of my day. But that's my one example. Yeah,

Andy Withrow: 46:49

that's good example. I think we're working on new website that bear with me, yeah, we're going out for a while. But I would like us to get to a point where, where we get that all up and running. And because I think examples are helpful or in and I just imagine people could feel overwhelmed, like, well, I don't know where you guys get this time. It's like, Well, really, you could just start with 15 minutes, if you could find 15 minutes, or 30 minutes in a week. What would you do with like, I imagined of putting up a blog post like that mostly written by you? Where, where you said, if you have 15 minutes a week, here's a couple things you could try. Yeah, half an hour and a week. Yeah, if you have 15 minutes a day, here's some things you could do if you had five minutes a day or something like that an hour you know, it's like here's some things is not you know, I think that could be that could be really useful thing. I love that because sometimes I just need a step like just get me started Yeah, some training wheels we have so give me a step by step and then and then I can kind of learn what we're you know how it works and all that sort of thing. So stay tuned stay sound maybe that'll get us a actually making on this some back to that okay. last obstacle ready? Are we ready? So we've had the resistance the personal allegiance insiders, outsiders like are you with Jesus or not? Because that does make a difference. And and, you know, the Bible counts that counts humility in our favor. So even those who like I don't want to overstate it because there's in the Bible is people who don't know Jesus, but they have the right posture, and that makes all the difference. So don't just think people who go to church who don't go to church I don't think it's quite like that. Yeah, I don't think that's what's what's happening here. But there is something about about stumbling upon this treasure and holding on to it in in in getting the wisdom and insight from it. Okay, last one competing allegiances. This third, I said first one resistance. Second one keeping system system working on your root system, third, one, competing allegiances. A strong temptation for competing allegiances. God's word can be heard. It can be received, and then it can get choked out. So, Jesus says specifically the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches like weeds that choke out the plant. These are competitors for our allegiance. Tell me about it. There are all sorts of gospels out there. Lots of good news.

Vanessa Caruso: 49:57

I like that idea.

Andy Withrow: 49:58

Lots of good news. As you said, We're constan We are being bombarded with stuff. Yeah, with messages how this thing's gonna change your life that thing's gonna change your skin. This thing's gonna change your everything, whatever. Everything constantly advertising and marketing for our very souls attention. Yes, it's spiritual. Yeah. It's spiritual was super holes just on all those ads yeah that they spent billions of dollars on or however much sounds dramatic but that's I think that's the aim of all good marketing and advertising Yeah, battle for your soul. How can we find the good life? How can we put salvation in a bottle or on a screen or in an experience? So we're always doing that we're all experts at envisioning the kind of life and lifestyle that will be our ultimate meaning that will really fulfill us. Give us ultimate meaning and significance, tell us who we are, and why we're good, why we're enough, all that stuff. And then there's the means to get that money's the popular ones so popular that Jesus actually calls it out specifically, with cares of the world. More generic cares of the world. And just like God's word is everywhere, but hidden. All the none of that impressive zoom form. The word of this world's Kingdom is also everywhere, but it's a lot more sexy. In your face. Great graphic designers for that stuff. super impressive. It's very alluring. Yeah. And often super convincing, especially when you put it side by side with the seat of God's Word. So does God need to hire a marketer? Graphic Designer and Superbowl commercial compete? put an ad in at the Superbowl. Right.

Vanessa Caruso: 51:56

Yeah, what would the ad say?

Andy Withrow: 52:01

Yeah, well, that's just I mean, it's just such a it's just such a juxtaposition. We're talking about these two things side by side. Yeah, it kind of goes back to the fireworks stuff, which were just so much more. Just so much easier. Set of fireworks. Yeah, to have a relationship with a person. Yes. It just does feel like God can't compete. Which feels funny to say but you know, with with the way he's going about things with the note, my word is enough. It's powerful enough, it's that'll be all you need. It'll change your life. And because tied in with the word is the presence of it's the presence of the king. Right? The Kingdom. Yeah. So. So that's the that's the thing. That's why I think that's a big reason why working on our root system is so hard as we just talked about, it's just there's so much competitors. Oh, yeah. For our time and attention and our energy. And it's not even bad things. No cares of this world money. Those are really helpful, practical thing. Yeah. That I don't think Jesus hates. He's just saying you got you. Those will choke out. Yeah, this thing if you let them. Yeah, you can't let them. Let me just wrap up my thing. Great. And then we'll talk more. Okay. So the whole point of this parable is that even with all these obstacles, the resistance, the the the no roots, the no root system, the competitors, the competing allegiances, that despite all that God's word wins. In the end, it has no rivals, if you're just looking at not looking at the individual level, like Andy and venison house gods were doing there. But look at the big picture. Like for all the seed that was lost in those first three things, so you there's there's four outcomes, the majority of the majority of them don't work. So it looks more like failure than success. But then the one outcome that does work, it works so well, that it more than like a save and close it more than makes up for the loss of everything else. So getting back to the sort of the setting in Jesus life, which we talked about last time. That's what it looks like. It's like he's got his disciples and everyone else is just like, even his families you know, and then he's got his enemies and they're plotting to kill them, you know, all this stuff. It's like, and then it's gonna get worse before it gets better. So it really looks like it's, it's, it's not working. But you can see where they're where the obstacles are taken away. God's word just explodes where roots are allowed to grow deep and the competition has been weeded out. You get a return. That's, like if you think about it in financial terms of return, it's ridiculous 3000 6010 1000 rate of return, that's 100 fold is a 10,000% rate of return. So if you bought Bitcoin five years ago, it would only be at about a 5,000% rate of return for comparison, but 10,000 rate of return. This is the fruit of God's Kingdom, the space where God was present to us, is in his will is being worked out in our lives, this peace, this goodness, this flourishing and growth and love and joy and justice. And this all comes back to God's desire to share with us that God is a talkative person. And that's his primary way of being with us in the world is communication. Very, very relational, very human and apparently divine way of being with someone. Even in the gospels, when Jesus says the miracles, he's like, Ah, don't worry about it. It's not the main thing. Yes, signs towards the bigger thing that is hid the stuff that's hidden. And he resists he resist sticking around? When things are going well, with the miracles now it's time to move on? Yeah. It doesn't like it doesn't does not seem to like to do them that much.

Vanessa Caruso: 56:26

Yeah. Yeah, all those all those miracles, where it's like, maybe it's, there's not a ton of them, but just feels like a theme when, you know, someone suffering from something, and Jesus is like, Your sins are forgiven. And everyone's like, ah, that person can't even walk. And it's like, Oh, okay. So that, you know, that I have the authority is

Andy Withrow: 56:48

like the IRA, that, you know, has authority,

Vanessa Caruso: 56:53

which is not to, you know, diminish the Jesus healed so many people. So there's, there's that too. Yeah. But it is. It is interesting. It reminds me of Jesus saying to Mary, and Martha, you know, only one thing is needed back to that first, Seek first the kingdom and only one thing is needed. Yeah, and I do feel like I've had moments where I experienced that, like, it's so hard to describe, but just the gratitude for existing at all, and usually related to something really hard or scary. You know, those those hardest moments in life, where when you survive them, you have new eyes for what's important for a day or a week. And in those things do transform us. So it's very appealing to me, like I'm very attracted to the last part here, that the return defies comparison, because I've tasted it. Like what's most important? I heard a story of you probably know that a couple in Oak Bay, which is like a very affluent neighborhood here in Victoria, who sold their house for a ton of money, because that's what houses go for these days. Have you heard this, millions of dollars, like little houses, and they gave everything off after what they put in, I don't know this language, you know, when you buy a house, and then everything you make, when you sell it, they gave that back to the native to the indigenous people.

Andy Withrow: 58:40

That is radicals, putting your money where your mouth

Vanessa Caruso: 58:43

is? And they don't know I kept what they had put into it or whatever. I might be getting the story wrong. But it made me think, you know, talking about the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches there is something radical about doing things like that. And it makes me think that that couple does know something about the joy the irrevocable joy and purpose and meaning that comes from like your your root system or your your identity and your investment into what in life but I love the I also love that. That third obstacle about getting choked out like that just feels like there's so much there. We could do a whole episode on that and we have because we always kind of talk about the reality

Andy Withrow: 59:46

of it's just it's easy to talk about because it's just it's constantly there. Everything yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 59:55

there's yeah so much compete. That's

Andy Withrow: 59:56

why That's why That's why there's again I like the digital minimalism stuff that we did with Naomi. It's like all these things. It's, it can be hard to talk about for a couple reasons, because it's not that, like all this technology, that there's so much good stuff that it really serves. So you don't want to just say, Oh, how terrible times we live in, when it also obviously brings so much help and blessing, but it definitely is a mixed bag. And that's what I think that's what we're learning. And, and so trying to figure out, okay, how do we how do we manage that and be more intentional about that, that flow in our lives, I think just the extended conversation we just had about the root system is kind of overflows into that. It's not just about, it's not just about saying like, hey, I need to, if we're going to work on our root system, we're also at the same time I've been working on our competition, or time and energy, like both those things in our world has to happen at the same time, I think

Vanessa Caruso: 1:00:57

Yeah. I don't know what to say. Yeah, it's kind of blows my mind every time. I've really liked the idea of there being a lot of gospels out there, you know, that it's, it's actually not accurate to think that there is just one gospel, but that there are so many gospels out there. And I also, it also reminds me of the one of the principles of non violence. I don't know how much Martin Luther King Jr. had to do with that. But I think of them as connected to Martin Luther King, Jr. And I've mentioned this before, but that idea that we, we all have conciliation in us, and we all have aggression in us. And aggression is not the right word, but I forget the right word, anyways, that we tend to put our conciliation towards systems, because they're hard to define in the heart to see and we tend to put our aggression or our resistance, like a righteous kind of, against personalities. And he says, what we really one of the principles of non violence is in reversing that, that we have to be intentional about putting our conciliation towards the personalities and the people that are the face of injustice. And we have to direct our our resistance, our anger, our aggression towards this the powers the systems, because we tend to think like, oh, the system's benign, you know, it's not, it doesn't have a face, it doesn't have a personality, it doesn't have a party. It's just, it just exists, it's just neutral, and I should somehow be a good person within it. And that is under estimating the reality of the systems that choke us. Yeah. We should probably wrap up,

Andy Withrow: 1:02:54

we should, I think the so there's the this kind of the second of the two parts on the sower and the seed. And I think just an ending in that space of God's heart like that it could have been otherwise, that God wanted to preserve our dignity and our human freedom, despite all the costs, and the long history it's caused, because if he was just going to be straightforward and say, No, my way the highway, then this would have been over a long time. And not in our favor. Most likely, yeah, at least at the probably at the cost of our human freedom. Yeah. But that, not only does he preserve that, but he bears with it. And he, he comes to like, wants to be with us and win us over, through his words, and through his presence. And so I think that's just where I would want to kind of end our image on this morning, or whatever time you're listening to this podcast. Great. Okay. Well, we'll be working on our new website. Stay tuned. I'll get Vanessa to do a bunch of blogs. Yeah. And then I'll try to organize it. Sound fun? Yeah. Love it. Okay. Well, thanks, Vanessa. Good to see you. You too. And next week or next time next week for us. We're gonna do I

Vanessa Caruso: 1:04:20

think the purpose of parables Yeah, might as well tricky one.

Andy Withrow: 1:04:22

I mean, we've already kind of talked about it a bit here with the kind of the nuance of it, but it'll be it'll be interesting to kind of talk about. Okay, okay. All right, everybody, have a good day where we and work on those root systems with with freedom. Exactly. Find some way and trust that God is at work. Okay, thanks, Vanessa.