Andy Withrow: 0:02

Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table radio, where we aim to integrate beliefs in practice in the Christian as well, we had some things we wanted to talk about today. And we keep, we're keeping track right now with our Rooted series at the table. This is going back to our roots, tables 10 years old this year. And so we're revisiting the sort of the core longings or DNA kind of the marks of kind of how we identify as a community. And the new one that we're just jumping into is sacrificial fellowship. Which fellowships a word we don't really use a lot. And it's kind of a churchy word, but really has to do with life in common. So it's, it's a very familiar word, it's a social word, it's a how do we do life together words. So that's a, that's a pretty common concept, even if the word fellowship itself isn't used. So that's kind of what we mean by it. So the kind of life in common that costs us something that we have to maybe give something up in order to, to participate in it is, I think, kind of the basic idea. So I, I was trying to think of maybe text to Rudin. And I thought of Philippians. Two, which the pretty familiar one for a lot of people. And so I thought, Vanessa, I just start by reading it, that might be a great place to start. And we can kind of just jump in, we had, we had jotted a couple ideas down to talk about loosely, and see where the conversation goes. But this is Philippians chapter two, verses one through 11. And a little bit of background, Paul is writing from prison. And he's talking about his friendship with this church in Philippi, this friendship with the Philippians, and that they are sharing in this ministry, this gospel ministry, Paul's mission to kind of give this news about who Jesus is to the whole world. And they're sharing in that with him in tangible ways. And so he's thanking them, he's, he's expressing his love and affection for them, and talking about how they share in his life, and he's sharing in their life, and that there are sharing in the life of Jesus together. And so that's sort of the backdrop of where we're picking up in chapter two. So chapter two. So, if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind, do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit. But in humility, count others more significant than yourselves, that each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, in every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. That's it. Well, I'm in verses 11 verses of chapter two. So there's a ton there. And maybe the place to start is just the tall order. What What is Paul talking about with this community of what it means to do life together? Yeah. And what's the shape that that takes? What's that? I the first question I had for us is what is the mindset that that Paul is is trying to shift us towards in this letter. And so maybe Vanessa, since I've been talking a lot, already to start, you can jumping in, maybe even you don't even have to go to mindset stuff at work, just kind of how does that passage jump off the page to you? Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:10

So I remember looking at this passage a couple months ago, when I did a sermon for the table, it was for another one of our core longings. But I, I had such a hard time with the first half of that. So I remember thinking like, Ooh, I'm not ready to talk about that yet, because I don't know what I think about it.

Andy Withrow: 5:34

So especially like the part before you get to the example of Jesus.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:38

Yeah. So especially the think of others is more significant than you. Or one translation, you know, says, think of others as better than you. Yeah, that was that part that is very confusing for me, I think because of my own background, and personality, and everything. And it's also a very primary message that I grew up with. So it sounds very familiar to me, growing up as a pastor's kid, and as a Christian, and in Christian university, to think of others as better than myself. But in the last decade or so, I think I've come to understand that for me, what that presupposes is that we do have a good sense of self in God. First, and I know not anything goes in order in the spiritual life. It's not like you check off the first level, and then you move on to the next. But there's this article by Henry now and called moving from solitude to community to ministry, it's really short. And it's just his idea of, of the kind of circle that discipleship goes in, modeled by Jesus. And I really identify with that, in that he says, you know, when Jesus goes to the mountain to pray, and his whole wilderness experience, and baptism is this rooting in his sense of identity, as a son of God, as a beloved of God. And after that, he forms community with the disciples. And then after that, they go down from the mountain, and they heal the sick. And so now and kind of says, these stages are always at play in our life, whereas where we need to have a sense of ourselves in order to look to others and form community in order to spend what we have. And then in God's economy, we get replenished, right. So that's kind of the the pre part to this section for me, is acknowledging that, in order to love our neighbor, as we love ourselves that we do have to have some sense of what it looks like to love ourselves, which for me, means coming to know and receive in deeper and deeper ways God's love for me, so that it's not super weird to always consider others as better than myself. Does that make sense?

Andy Withrow: 8:20

It makes a ton of sense. And it's it glad you started there. Because I think that's an important thing to acknowledge and distinguish between. Because a lot of times when you get to the the practice of the Christian life, it can be easy to short circuit the gospel, which has to drive it. So when you get to Paul saying, Hey, this is how we ought to live in the world. It's only because of the gospel that Paul is obsessed with. So it's only because we can be can rest secure in God's great goodness in love and care for us. Right. So that's, that's kind of a big, a big backdrop to all of this is to is to acknowledge that aspect of the gospel. So for example, as you pointed out, Jesus will go to the mountains to pray. Mm hmm. You know, he'll spend time will spend hours away from people who need him. Mm hmm. Right. So you have to kind of there's sort of this other side of it, right? It's like, Well, yeah, you could you could have an interpretation as well. Jesus isn't considering others, more important than himself more significant. When they need healing. You know, I'm thinking of that night he stayed up all night healing. And then early in the morning before he was awake, he goes and prays, and they're all looking for him, like, where'd he go? He can't just, you know, can't just leave and apparently he can. And so, so it can't, it can't mean that it can't mean like there's no I don't create margins for myself. There's no self care. There's no space for For the gospel, as we've talked about in past episodes, having that teeny little space even to open up for, for the seed of God's Word to bring all this fruit in our lives. Yeah, Paul is definitely presupposing. All of this and in it, it's all over chapter one, right? Philippians it's like it's assumed background, they know the gospel, they know their identity in Christ, they know that, that there is nothing they can do to earn God's love that is freely given in the air living in walking in it. And so it's almost like Paul says, So in light of that, in a way is with this first bit, if there's any encouragement in Christ, if you're experiencing any of this benefit, yeah, life in the Gospel in the participation of the Spirit, which has all these implications for our meaning and significance, and God, God's presence in our lives, then go the distance. And really, instead of being someone who is sucking life, grasping life, we talked about this last time, too, I can't remember the bread table. But being someone who's just grasping and sucking life out of others, which is some of the language here the grasping for things for significance and meaning, we're able to rest in our security meaning and give, give ourselves away, give this goodness away that God has given us share our wealth. With with others. Yeah, so great, great caveat. Great first, before we jump further in,

Vanessa Caruso: 11:36

yeah, I love that idea that the beginning of this chapter is Paul saying, if you have experienced that at all, if you know what I'm talking about, to know that you are an individual very particular, and that you are loved and forgiven, and you have a future then have this posture or be this way, in community? That sounds like good news to me, like that sounds really inviting, rather than a burden, like assuming that everyone else is better than me. And I'm, and everyone else, it whatever they ask of me has to be a yes. That's like one of the places I take it. And Jesus. I mean, we know the times he stopped in a crowd, but we don't know how many times he didn't. I mean, because we know the few stories where you know, he was walking and Someone touched his robe, or someone was crying out. And he actually stopped whatever direction he was going in. My assumption is that there's so many times he didn't stop for other people, and didn't reply to people's requests. So this isn't like, perpetual yes to others all the time. But there's a way of being that I think, Paul's inviting us into in this and it's really intriguing.

Andy Withrow: 12:55

Yeah, so we're, we're saying count others more significant than ourselves cannot mean, we're always saying yes to whatever other people requested. That's not what that means. It can't be

Vanessa Caruso: 13:06

what that means. So what does it mean?

Andy Withrow: 13:10

So yeah, that's kind of our first question is, what is what is this mindset that, that Paul is calling us to? I think, and I think it follows flows right out of that gospel idea that we were just talking about, is that, to me, this, this seems like freedom. Right? I think you could read this and feel very overwhelmed. And it feels like not freedom. By all means, it is a you are free to do this. I think so too. Because of the gospel, you are free to have this kind of mindset, because you don't need to grasp for meaning and significance anymore, because you have that you have that in the Gospel. You have that and what God has done for you.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:00

Yes, so is it okay, if I say something?

Andy Withrow: 14:03

Yes. Okay. This is the Vanessa Andy podcast, so you should probably definitely say something

Vanessa Caruso: 14:12

I meant now like, oh, man, about to like, you know, drop the mike.

Andy Withrow: 14:18

dramatic pause. And then No, I was I was just setting you up. Oh, perfect.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:24

Thank you. Okay, so what I think this looks like this freeing invitation a way to be, and I don't know if this is a stretch or not. But my sense of it is that especially looking at how he describes what Jesus is and was that humility is being really okay with being human, for one, with not being God for two which goes together which means that we are free to be vulnerable, because we don't have to defend or protect ourselves. Like that's not forefront in our minds. There's one definition of humility by this woman, Esther de wall. And she describes humility as being profoundly earth. And Jesus in this passage, he is divine. And that's what it says, like he had this opportunity to grasp that equality with the divine God, but did not consider grasping that. So his okayness with being human, that he did not despise being in human form, he didn't consider it something to be escaped, or embarrassed about or ashamed of. I know this is a little bit of a stretch, but to me, the invitation is it's okay for me to to also be okay with being human. Which means that I'm not God in any situation, that I make mistakes, that I'm needy, that I have limitations that I do embarrassing things, which for my personality is very freeing because it means in community, my first goal is not to try to be better than I am, or more than I am. But the invitation is no, what what really will foster true community or sacrificial fellowship is if I am willing to be the human that God made me to be in bigger and bigger ways. And the whole, like antiracist work has a lot to contribute to this, because white fragility is kind of that same thing, it's, it's wanting to like, show up really well, and do a really good job as a white person all the time, which is actually an impediment to actual growth. And connection with people is if this perfectionism is kind of guiding interactions. So that's how I hear Paul is like, don't let that kind of perfectionism or ego or insecurity guide your relating in this community, that be free, to be needy, to make mistakes, to give what you have, even if it doesn't feel like a lot like someone shares something, and you're like, well, I don't know what I can do about that. But I can do this really small thing. It feels almost laughable how small it is. I feel like Paul's saying Yeah, do that. Yeah. That's what you have to give. Give it?

Andy Withrow: 17:30

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good, I think, a good transition into Jesus as the example. Yeah, that we're giving here. Because Paul's definitely making this explicit connection between what he wants to see in the life of the Philippians. And the example or even more. So I think the source of that life, the source of this mindset is, is our connection to Jesus himself, who being in the form of God did not count equality with God, I think to be grasped. And just kind of slowing down and reflecting on this passage, this past couple of weeks for me, has really stood out to me because it's not like, like, like, you're making a good, good connection. They're like, okay, just be human. Is that be what? Yeah, that's true. Humility is just owning who we are. And not, not more, not less, not a false humility. But then there's Jesus who was in the form with God. Mm hmm. And it says, but didn't account equality with God a thing to be grasped. I think, in a way, the subtext here is, or one implications, because he knew who he was, he knew he was, and he knew he was the God. So why do I have to? I mean, you in the sense of, I don't need to prove this to anybody I know it. Yeah. Like when you know something about yourself, you don't feel like you need to prove it. Yeah. When you're insecure, and you wonder, that's where some of that grasping comes from, I think, or at least in my own experience. I try to force things to happen, or I want people to see me a certain way and then it's artificial, or that it's not. It's not true. And it's not humility. Yeah. But this ties in with the gospel is like if we live into our gospel adoption, in our gospel belonging into the family of God and His people. Then all this, this grasping, that's where that's where the freedom comes in. And so I think that was one thing is, Jesus knew who he was. knew his identity as belonging to the Father had that clear relationship in his own heart and mind in his identity. And so was able there because that to empty himself and take the form of a servant which I never caught this before with this this very familiar passage, but he's paralleling the idea of taking the form of a servant with being born in the likeness of a human. Hmm. So this goes back, I think, to the purpose of creation, and the purpose of our creation is that we have, we have a role within creation is servanthood role under God within creation. And there's freedom in that too. Like, that's actually what we were made for, like we, we experience fulfillment when we are when we are we have good work to do. Right? Yeah. Like there is fulfilling and satisfying work and it gets out of sorts, and it gets out of bounds and it becomes less than what it could be. But most of us have an experience of what fulfilling work can look like, or an imagination for it, or hopefully an experience of it. And that's, I think there's a built in creational reason for that is that it has to do with, with a with how we were made, we were made to function those ways to serve God and to serve others and to love others.

Unknown: 21:17

Wow, it would be a cool translation, for it to read, being in the form of a steward. Like servant is kind of means the same thing. But stewardship, for me is even a more exciting, or evocative understanding of our role as humans back from the beginning, because it means that we've been gifted everything. And the invitation is to steward all that we've been gifted to steward the earth to steward the people that we've been given to steward ourselves, like the gift of Andy that you've been given to steward. Yeah, and me the gift of Vanessa that I've been given to steward. So thinking of Jesus as not despising and, you know, choosing the the role of steward that's, that's beautiful.

Andy Withrow: 22:11

Mm hmm. Yeah, do los. Where we get the word oula from,

Vanessa Caruso: 22:17

that's even cooler.

Andy Withrow: 22:18

That's the that's the word there in Philippians, two, seven.

Vanessa Caruso: 22:21

Wow. That's so cool. That's more midwife. And steward. I

Andy Withrow: 22:26

only know that because I have my Greek tool open on my computer. So, right. I'm not trying to misrepresent myself fluent in Greek,

Vanessa Caruso: 22:35

but yet there.

Andy Withrow: 22:42

Yeah, so. Okay, so that was one thing, there's, he knew who he was. So he didn't have to grasp for it that gave him freedom, to serve as a form of a servant, which is to be found in human form. And then even then it goes on and being found in human form, He humbled Himself. And I want to add in further even further, because that's already step in humility is I don't, I don't need to grasp for for my form as God I can, I can take on the role of a servant by being in human form. And I can humble myself further by becoming obedient to the point of death.

Vanessa Caruso: 23:20

Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 23:23

Is getting intense right here. getting beaten to the point of death, even death on the cross, which is which is showing that the, the kind of execute Roman execution of crucifixion was a very shameful, humiliating and painful, I mean, his major purposes a major deterrent, so they would crucify people at, you know, on the outskirts of cities on the road, so people would see it like that's the whole point is it's a public. It's a spectacle. Like this is this, how the Empire treats sedition, subversion, those those kinds of things.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:06

I mean, that's such an intense part of this passage, obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. And it reminds me of Howard Thurman's Jesus in the disinherited, because he quote somebody, I don't know who but he quotes somebody in there, talking about Jesus and says, Jesus's humility could not be humiliated. Like Jesus was the most free person in the world. And so he was free from being humiliated. And I always remembered that, like humility cannot be humiliated, and how Jesus kind of takes that to the last possible length. But also, in that same book, Howard Thurman talks about integrity and he says that there are some things that are worse. than losing your life, and losing your integrity of personality is one of those things. And that reminds me of this passage about Jesus. That Yeah, be obedient even to death. It was it was Jesus saying there are some things worse than dying on a cross, and me not being integral to who I am. And what I'm sent for. would be worse than that. And so this comes under like a bigger, yes. And my bigger Yes, is that I'm going to have integrity. The crazy thing is that Howard Thurman says, we all have the invitation to do that, to to honor or value our integrity, above all other fears, fears of death, or losing our reputation, or, you know, he'd be on the on the spectrum that says, like, there is no reason to lie ever. Which is a tricky question. Maybe we could talk about that sometime. I have her reasons to lie, because you start getting examples like if you know, people that are hiding Jewish families from the Nazis, but it's a really interesting area to explore.

Andy Withrow: 26:14

Yeah, yeah, that's good. I like I like that there are things worth and death, even death on the cross. And I think I think the backdrop to that is, as you said, it's Jesus, knowing who he is who he belongs to, knowing his true identity. And he's, those are, those far outweigh the cost. And Paul will say this out elsewhere, in his letters to churches are being persecuted that are our present. sufferings can't be compared to what is what we're holding on to in the future, what we were holding on to that there is a there will be a turning of the tables that we belong to adjust in good God. And we are, we are choosing our allegiances before the before the big, revealing the big. The big turning of the time of the age of the season, everyone, however you want to think of it. And so that's a real, I think it's a helpful lens, because we can get very stuck in the pattern of behavior that we need to have the form of godliness, but denying its power, that either James or john warns about, I can't remember which one, that we have the story of Christianity by growing up in it. And so we know, we know the right behavior, we think we know the right behavior, we have not tapped into the source and the power and the goodness and the love behind the whole point of like, the behavior is sort of the last thing it's like, it's the implications of the deeper things that are true. And if we get the cart in front of the horse, that becomes the problem that becomes an unsustainable reality because this stuff is impossible. That's the whole point that there's you can't live this way that there has to be some sort of super natural, external power source, and identity source and love source that fuels this whole thing that says, oh, there's the pearl of great price that is worth way more than any pain and suffering that I could experience in my pursuit of that. And so I will give literally everything I have an M to. To have that. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 28:44

That seems like a good segue. How do we live deeply into Jesus to tap into the source of this mindset to actually live this way? Yeah, because that's the clear implication. It's not just do this, don't do that. It's because of who God is in Christ and what he's done and how he's how he is present to us. Therefore,

Andy Withrow: 29:16

Here's the implications. Can I start us off by talking about some other things that that this reminded me of in the scriptures?

Vanessa Caruso: 29:28

Yeah, that'd be great.

Andy Withrow: 29:30

And in my life, it made me think of the parable. And I can't remember I didn't look it up so I can remember this is the parable of the banquet seating. Remember, Jesus tells us one about where where to sit when you're invited to a dinner party. Oh, yeah. So and even, like more so in that culture than ours, it's like where you sat had to do with your importance, your significance. So like sitting at the right hand of the host, that's like a number one So he tells the story about it's way, way better to sit yourself at the end, and have the host calm and say, No, no, no, no, no. You, you bring, you know, you sit up here, you sit up in this space, then to have the opposite happen, where you grasp for that number one seat and say, that's actually not for you.

Vanessa Caruso: 30:27

Connection.

Andy Withrow: 30:28

Right. So anyway, I think this, these are just I wanted to share some of these parallels just then maybe to kind of get our juices flowing about, okay, what are practical implications? So Jesus thought of the banquet seating as a good parable or image of some of this stuff. It made me think of beginning of John's gospel, the disciples are following Jesus, because john the baptist told them to, and he turns around, says, Hey, I kind of noticed that you're following me? And it's like, what do you guys want? What are you looking for? What do you seek? Say what we want to know where you live? It's kind of creepy. But it makes sense in the context. It's the word is the same word from john 15. But we want to where you abide? Oh, I think John's intentional there. And and so when I'm thinking about when we're looking for that, what is the source that's going to give us true freedom in the way that Paul's describing here to live this way to really, genuinely care about others without self interest to really give ourselves to, to blessing others and serving them? We have to ask this, answer this question from Jesus, well, what are you looking for? Well, I want to, I want to know where you abide, because that's where I want to also, that's where I want to live out of, there are over 71 another verses in the New Testament, it made me think of that, at that the implications for the Christian for the gospel, is are so communal, there's so there's so communal of how to live life together. Despite differences, which included very much included racial differences in that context, Gentile and Jew was being what's considered a uncrossable bridge, like an uncrossable cast. And, and Paul's, and Peter's big thing was like this is, this is the thing it's going to do, it is the only thing in fact, that's actually going to do it genuinely. And it's still true today for socio economic differences, for racial differences for all kinds of things that would otherwise divide us is, is the power and the promise of the gospel. I'm gonna stop there, I got some more things that I'll bring up a little bit later,

Vanessa Caruso: 32:57

Andy, those are so good, like those stories, or little vignettes that connect to this passage, that kind of flesh it out. And I am honestly more excited about this topic than I was before because of our cool core longings. This is like, this was not one I was very excited about. Because my first connotation with sacrificial fellowship is okay, we're going to talk about how to be with one another which feels so insular. In not like a very inspiring way. And I'm not proud of that. But I just mean, when you don't think about it correctly, it can just feel like, Oh, we want to be a church who's all really nice to each other. And we're just going to focus on that and not think about the world outside and not go really deep with God, we're just going to try to be really nice. That's kind of the worst case scenario for this focus, is try to be really nice to everybody all the time. And it just doesn't work. It's not very inspiring. No, I'm really inspired hearing you reframe it as those who we are in community with, like our families, and then those we have choose to be a family with in community is the place that we work out our freedom and our vocation, first and foremost. And that spills out into the next ring, which is not an actual ring, but just the world. Yeah, like who we are in the world with people that we don't know, online or in person that we pass. So that's that's a more fun way for me to think about it that this is like the practice, play.

Andy Withrow: 34:40

I think the one I didn't share was the city on a hill one from Matthew five. Like this is what used to be and it made me think of the witch the part we didn't get to which is like the best part of the section is what therefore what God has done because of because God loves humility and integrity, and rewards those who earnestly seek Him. And and so there's this vindication moment where God takes Jesus who sat himself at the end of the table says, No, no, no, no, you come up and sit up here at my right hand, yeah, you're the guest of honor your the. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name. at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow in heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And that part made me think of the flip side, like the flip side of the suffering and the hard parts about sacrificial fellowship, the costs, that is there's the vindication bit the God is pleased bit that God will, God will vindicate and, and raise up and that we get to share that this is an important concept in the New Testament, that we have to share in the glory that we get to be a part of that. That celebration bit like we were in on it. Right. And, and it made me think that there's both the the, the advertising aspect of it the city on a hill, the when we dig into community in this way, as a sacrificial fellowship, it's going to be noticeable to a degree the people who are have eyes to see it, like, Wow, those people really care about each other. Look, how they bear burdens together, look, how they they share their sorrow, and also their their victories. Look how they really care for one another, and serve one another. And yeah, the there has to be some benefit, I think, to being in this covenant community. Yeah, they say, wow, I don't know if I believe the whole thing, but the way they live is sure compelling. Maybe I just want to be a part of that and figure it out. You know, I think that's, that's some of the best of the gospel living stuff.

Vanessa Caruso: 37:16

Yeah. Yeah, I have different directions. I feel like I could go with that. But I'll just say that the future oriented stuff I don't quite identify with yet, kind of from the inside out. Like, it doesn't give me much constellation yet, just to be honest, to think of future vindication, or future. Blessing or meaning, or reward or sitting. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's something I have to kind of assent to with my mind, like, okay, I might, I'll like, kind of fake it till I make it there. Because it does, I don't know what that actually means. And it also feels a little bit confusing, because wanting vindication or reward feels confusing, in light of what we're talking about. So I but I like I like what you're talking about, and it will make it'll cause me to think, and what I think one of the things you're saying is that we don't necessarily get all the benefits of this way of life now. And that is hopeful to me that there are benefits to this way of life, though. Like there's surprising. connection and meaning and joy that comes from being a vulnerable person in relationship with others, where you give and receive. Like, that is like, what the great disconnect movie was about it. They said, you know, being isolated is as unhealthy as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. So this is the flip side, like not being isolated in a very daily, weekly way has like, so much benefit in the here and now. But I also hear you saying if it's not always beneficial, that's not the end of the story.

Andy Withrow: 39:07

Correct. And that's exactly what was gonna go to qualify, it is say that, to go back to rooting it in the what is the hope that we're holding out for? Because we don't? Well, we do get to experience a lot of benefits on this side of the turning of the tables or however you want to think of it the end. There are going to be some costs that I don't think we get to experience the benefits of this side. I think that's that's got to be tied into that vindication, please like I was patient and I didn't take the shortcuts. Because I because I had a conviction around God's goodness and faithfulness and so I stayed that course. Mm hmm. And so I think if you think of reward or or vindication in that that light I think that's probably closer to the to the mark. Yeah. flesh it out a bit.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:03

Just because we're running out of time, can I share a practical thing?

Andy Withrow: 40:07

Please do that comes to mind.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:11

So my more recent favorite definition of humility came from Roberta Bondi. And she studies that desert fathers and mothers and said, for them, humility meant being able to take responsibility for what you have done, without being humiliated by it. And so when I was thinking about like, the practical application for this core longing, and this passage, I thought for forgiveness has essential to me, like learning the art of forgiveness, taking responsibility for what we have done, without being humiliated by it. And for me, what that looks like, is growing in the art of taking responsibility, which I can really grow in. Because, you know, in the recovery movement, there's a couple steps dedicated to this whole thing, taking responsibility for what you've done. There's, you know, making a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. There's admitting to God to ourselves into another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. That's one of the steps. And then another step is making a list of all persons we have harmed and, and becoming willing to make amends to them all. So out of 12 steps, three of them are kind of about this part about taking responsibility. And so that's what I thought about is like, one of the, the primary things to me is learning how to get better at confessing, and not just privately, yeah, but to other people. And also to being so bold and so free as to try to make amends where I can. But a huge part of that, at least in the recovery movement, they often will say at meetings that the first person that's on their list of making amends to, and this surprises people all the time is themselves and forgiving themselves. And us forgiving ourselves is a step that I feel like we don't that we do miss sometimes. And so that to me is key and being able to be a person who's profoundly okay with being human is not only repenting, like to God in a real honest way, often to another person, and then receiving God's forgiveness, which allows us to forgive ourselves and kind of move on. Yeah, and Henry now and said that to in that same articles, solitude community ministry said the two features of community are forgiveness, and celebration. And he said forgiveness is allowing other people not to be God, which frees you to celebrate each other's unique gifts. And that's what forms community. So that was my main idea about what this looks like I thought, like, has to be forgiveness has to be in there in order for us to be people of humility, who are not grasping or defending or protecting.

Andy Withrow: 43:27

Yeah. Yeah. Which, which just ties I mean, ties back into the gospel of the root, you know, is of of all of this. Yeah, I can't we can't we have to do something with our sense of guilt and shame. Yeah. And and that's, that's the Gospels answer is for freedom for those from those things.

Vanessa Caruso: 43:48

Yeah. And if you think of the person who does be lined for that best seat at the banquet table, you know, like, you walk in, and there's someone that just assumes they're going to sit there. It's easy to think of that person as like, arrogant or delusional, you know, like, oh, who's so arrogant that they would do that. We know from living and from ourselves, that it's not arrogance that leads people to grasp for that seat. Usually, it's like hurt. It's insecurity. It's trauma. So that's how it ties into like to walk into that room and not need that seat because you are okay. You know, you're okay. Thanks for that. Yeah. It's good. I have more but I don't want to have more practical applications, but I want to let you share any two.

Andy Withrow: 44:49

I only have I only have one. Oh, you should say do you This might be me revealing how weird I am just insight into the life of Andy but I do like I am such an internal processor. And, and people in my life who, who I really respect or spend a lot of time with their voices get in my head. Like in a, in a good way, like oh, like in a positive way like I can hear like I've and this is true with with you is true with Josh, it's true with my wife. If I'm thinking through something, I can hear Vanessa's voice pop into my head sometimes or Josh's voice or my wife's voice as a helpful little prompt like, oh, what would they say? Because they're different than me. But I know them well enough that I, I can I can. As I'm thinking through a problem. I can I know Vanessa would ask this question, I know she would have something like this, or I know Katie would say this, or Josh would challenge me here or whatever the thing is, yeah. And that is intensely helpful for me in terms of discernment in terms of thinking through things. And it made me think of the importance of having God's voice in my head, oh, having the voice of Jesus in my head. And it doesn't seem to be an accident, that, that in the in the Bible, there's sort of this deep connection between God's word and God's Son, and the Spirit of God that these three have have, are very closely connected. And, and the more that I find myself immersing myself, in the words of the Scriptures, in the words of Jesus, the more I I can imagine what Jesus is saying in a moment of discernment. And knowing that it's not just this detached thing of, oh, I've got enough scripture in my head, so I can kind of have that voice there. But that knowing that God's Spirit is active in that process, and uses those words. And this is my, one of my best arguments, I think for routing in the scriptures is getting God's words into your head and heart so that he can use them in these moments of how do I route in these kinds of things? How do I, how am I so immersed in the story of the gospel and caught up in it, that I'm actually experiencing the freedom that Paul's talking about here in caring about others? Does? This is the problem that you get with me is that my practical applications are all kind of the same. Back to it, oh, you should read your Bible, which is such a and I'm self conscious about it. So why don't you go?

Vanessa Caruso: 47:58

I loved how you opened that though, because I didn't know what you're going to say when you said other people's voices are always in your head. And I, it that just makes so much sense. Like when the disciples said, Where do you abide, one of your things you're saying is that I abide in the story of God and I abide in the words, giving words. Yeah. And that sounds like Deuteronomy like the Shema. And it sounds like

Andy Withrow: 48:27

yeah, it requires it requires to hear Vanessa or Katie's or Joshua's voice might requires time spent with them, and really knowing them and no less is true of, of spending time with Jesus. Spending time with with God in that sense.

Vanessa Caruso: 48:45

Yeah, and I was gonna say, Jesus in the wilderness, that temptations, you almost can see him, you know, getting a temptation to like grasp, or prove or take the top seat above the city or whatever. And you can almost see him saying, what would God say? What does God say? Because he only answered with verbatim.

Andy Withrow: 49:10

Yeah, scripture. Yeah, I like that. It's good. Good connection.

Vanessa Caruso: 49:16

Okay, a few of my other practical examples. Yeah. indifference, which we can just link to this because it's too big of a topic, but indifference is like a spiritual practice, to something to like, aim for, and it's a new, it was a new word for me. You know, it's a new word for a lot of people. It's from Ignatius, and the idea is not being apathetic, which is what it sounds like. It's holding all of God's gifts lightly. It's not being free from care. It's being free for whatever is the right thing to do or for you to do or for For me to do in a situation. So there are some ways to kind of practice or understand in difference as a quality of being. So that comes into play. Little things like practicing, asking for help, or practicing, receiving, I feel like is what this passage makes me think of. There's some of us that love to give help. But what's more profound to me is when people are willing to receive, there's like a humility involved in receiving. Yeah, that does not compare to giving. So even a neighborhood table, if I've seen this happen, you know, where people receive and really vulnerable ways. And that is more bonding for a community, I think, than anything else.

Andy Withrow: 50:51

I was going to refer to our neighborhood table as an example of where we, we see some of the stuff that Paul's talking about here where we have experience crying to get with others sorrows and, and, and thinking through how do we how do we help this person in this season? You know, it's been quite

Vanessa Caruso: 51:13

amazing. last idea is kind of along the perfectionism route, like thinking about humility. And I think one of the implications of not being a perfectionist, because I'm profoundly okay with being myself and with being human, is all those things that I think I would start this, you know, if I knew it would live up to my expectations, or I would do this creative project, or I would reach out to this person. But I'm afraid that it won't meet my expectations. Like just that hesitation, that chronic hesitation I have that keeps me from starting spending, giving, creating, That, to me feels like an invitation from this too, is like go for it. You know, it's probably not gonna look the way it like starting a podcast with you, I'd probably want to think about it for like a year, to make sure I knew if it was going to be good or not, instead of just saying, That's not the way things work, like you've got to enter as yourself. That's the vulnerability. So that's an encouragement for me too.

Andy Withrow: 52:17

Mm. Hmm. Yeah, that's so good. There's tons more we could talk about, we might come back to this on on another episode, maybe even the next one. We have that slated. But it was really great. That's true. This is fun. Mm hmm. Well, do

Vanessa Caruso: 52:38

we have time for me to ask him a question? Oh, yeah, like a question.

Andy Withrow: 52:44

I remember you sending me that. I forgot to look at it. But yeah, asking, What was it again?

Vanessa Caruso: 52:48

If something comes to mind, so what I'm seeing lately that has really, like, cheered you up or inspired you? Like, what's something that you're like? That that was really good stuff that brought me to God?

Andy Withrow: 53:05

Mm hmm. I've been listening to I found one thing is I found a podcast of Darrell Johnson sermons. You love that guy. I do it. So I've said this is Joel Johnson is was my professor of preaching at region and learned a lot from from him. And up until like, I've looked for this before, as like, Oh, I wonder if he has any. So this is pretty recent. I think it was from the last year this started so I was pretty excited to find that stumble across that and and that's been fun to kind of jump back into some of his his style, which it's different than mine. But it's it's it's really helpful. Like I definitely take a lot of his his approach. And his approach helpful to preaching and, and even even what I prepared for today for our conversation is, is taken from a lot of his his outline of preparation for how to prepare for, for sermon. So I'm not preaching out of this, because I'm not I'm not slated to preach again for a while, but I just kind of took the first few few prompts and questions to help me kind of dig into Philippians in that way. And so I find it really helpful. So that's been that's been fun.

Vanessa Caruso: 54:37

That's so great. Maybe you could link it in the notes.

Andy Withrow: 54:40

Yeah, for sure.

Vanessa Caruso: 54:43

Yeah, he sounds so great. Everything you've talked about him. Okay, you want to hear mine?

Andy Withrow: 54:48

Yes.

Vanessa Caruso: 54:49

So Jamie Smith, James K. Smith

Andy Withrow: 54:52

that guy Ja es.

Vanessa Caruso: 54:54

We've looked at a new newsletter, a monthly newsletter. It's just started like Three months ago. Yeah, it's through image journal. And he's so smart that I don't even get half of it. Like I don't actually understand.

Andy Withrow: 55:09

He's kind of frustratingly smart. Something. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 55:11

And so good words, but the template for this newsletter, I just loved it. So it's called a tree, a rock and a cloud. And it comes from this quote, this quote from Carson mccullers. Son, do you know how love should be begun? The boy sat small and listening. And still, slowly he shook his head, the old man leaned closer and whispered, a tree, a rock, a cloud. So basically, the old man's answer to how should love bb gun is a tree, Iraq, a cloud. And then what Jamie does with that is that he has these sections, every newsletter, so he has attending things I'm attending to things I'm looking at something I'm reading something I'm loving, and something I'm listening to, and making. So in each of those categories, he kind of does his whole cultural theological audit on different one of those things called, like, these things in the world that are made like matter, listened to look at read watch. And he executes them to know what they're doing for love, or in terms of love. So even though it's too it's above me, I like that that idea. Yeah, of taking stuff that we love. I just love it. So I look forward to it every time.

Andy Withrow: 56:38

Yeah, we've been. We've done some stuff with Jamie Smith together on our when we've done taught origins class together. Some of those exercises are really helpful of looking at how does in we're gonna try to look at this in a few weeks. With getting back to the great disconnect stuff about how does, how does our architecture of our buildings, how does the way our city is designed? How does that shape our affections? Yeah, he's very big on that. Very fascinating, very insightful. Yeah. And so I think we'll be we'll be exploring some of that, too. In the weeks to come. So I'm excited about that. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Well, let's, okay, so we need what we need to do, Vanessa, is you need to be sending me some of these links of some of the things you mentioned, just in case people want to jump into the show notes and check them out. I know you quoted now in a number of times in Thurman, Jesus and the disinherited. Yeah, among other things, Darrell Johnson's podcast, Jamie Smith, how to get can we get Jimmy Smith's newsletter? How do we do that? You have to be special. Do you have to be sitting at the right hand? table. Now, anyone,

Vanessa Caruso: 57:49

you can sign up for it on image.

Andy Withrow: 57:52

Okay. Awesome. All right. Well, we'll do that. So yeah, check it out, everyone. And thanks, Vanessa. This is really great. It was really fun to jump into this text with you and kind of see where it led us. So more to come. All right, we'll see you next time. Thank you.