Vanessa Caruso: 0:01

Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life that you've never seen

Andy Withrow: 0:20

I have never spent a night in jail. Like, have you? No. Oh. But you've gotten in trouble with the law. Yes, I have in. Can you tell me that story? Or stories?

Vanessa Caruso: 0:32

Couple tickets. Okay. The ones I'm most ashamed of? Yes. Are two texting while driving technically, but texting at red lights. In Victoria,

Andy Withrow: 0:45

you got ticketed for texting while driving in Victoria. But you

Vanessa Caruso: 0:49

both times stopped at a red light or stop at a red light completely stopped touching my phone.

Andy Withrow: 0:57

And how did how did they catch you?

Vanessa Caruso: 0:59

Okay, so the first one was like a sting operation. Okay, at Blanchard and hillside. And they were hiding behind the Boston Pizza. And it was an undercover cop who crossed the street at the crosswalk. And I was the first one in line

Andy Withrow: 1:15

guised as a pedestrian. Yes. common citizen,

Vanessa Caruso: 1:18

and I'm touching my phone and it's little holder, texting, drop off went well gymnastics camp. And he just walked straight up to my window and says you're not allowed to

Andy Withrow: 1:28

do that. Oh, okay. And then did what do you pulled you over? Yeah. Then I had to go into the parking park over here. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 1:36

I gotta take it. I still had my Philadelphia plates on my car. So a little bit was like you might have been profiled. Yeah, like, yeah, Philadelphia and it was like,$300 Wow. 360 something. It was. I felt really really bad.

Andy Withrow: 1:54

So this interesting. Okay, so the sting operation is they're trying to get people who are stopped texting is texting.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:00

Yeah. I didn't know it was illegal

Andy Withrow: 2:05

to text while you're stopped at us.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:07

Yeah. Something it is. And I see so many people doing it now. Like, if you look over, people are looking down. Yeah. So they're smarter. They're not doing it up on that dashboard.

Andy Withrow: 2:17

You were like holding yours up like selfie everyone to see. Okay, so But you said this happened more than once

Vanessa Caruso: 2:27

did happen a second time. It's even worse. I was holding my phone. I was at stopped at the red light adjacent to the Victoria Police department

Andy Withrow: 2:38

office. But you weren't going to the police department? No, you just happen to be in that area. Yeah, Caledonian quadrotors. A higher concentration fleet.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:47

There. There was one right next to me that I hadn't noticed on his motorcycle.

Andy Withrow: 2:51

He's looked over. Yeah. Okay.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:53

So my alibi for that. Is that I was driving the cruise. muskies fan. Yeah. I don't know why must have picked up children or something. So I was in a new car. So in my car, I have my holder like and I it reminds me like don't touch that. You got to take it once for touching that. Just keep it up. But I didn't have the holder and so out of habit. I like checked it or something. Yeah. But it's because I wasn't in my my usual car. So I forgot. He didn't care. No. Yeah. Didn't care. And if I get a third one, it's like really bad. So I don't do it anymore. Interesting.

Andy Withrow: 3:33

Well, that's great stories.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:36

Thanks, Andy. I think having recorded

Andy Withrow: 3:39

about getting in trouble the law so I'm glad that you

Vanessa Caruso: 3:41

You're welcome.

Andy Withrow: 3:43

But I wanted to want to talk a bit about law and, and maybe based on your experiences now this will skew your answer to this question, but what do you what comes to mind when you hear the word law?

Vanessa Caruso: 3:58

No, I'm Texas. Yeah. Texting while driving. In law makes me feel feels cold. It feels like the image that comes to mind is like a big huge Bible open in a courtroom. Okay, kind of thing. Law gavel Yeah, yeah, that kind of

Andy Withrow: 4:27

thing called down in this probably has been colored by your experiences with definitely here in Victoria. Yeah. It is not taking into account that you were stopped.

Vanessa Caruso: 4:44

Okay, and that it came from the states where people like, take videos of themselves while driving. At least in Philadelphia. They did.

Andy Withrow: 4:54

Right. K cold Bible courtroom. distant. What else?

Vanessa Caruso: 5:05

It's such a short word. You know, but it's so powerful. Law.

Andy Withrow: 5:12

Yeah. Law. What about it? And you've already kind of brought this in with the Bible. But what about when I say God's law?

Vanessa Caruso: 5:24

They feel it feels a little bit like an oxymoron to me, God's law, because God I associate with goodness, love, grace. And then law is like, feels like a hard line. And so loves hard line, that it feels a little bit awkward. God's law.

Andy Withrow: 5:47

Yeah. Yeah. You're probably not alone in that I really, that's kind of what sometimes I would anticipate with with conversations around law in general, like the Old Testament law and or the God's law, when we talk about that. But that's what I want to talk about today is the law, especially as we look at it given in the Old Testament. So going back to Exodus. I believe that it isn't an oxymoron.

Vanessa Caruso: 6:17

Really, I believe you've been so excited about God's law, I

Andy Withrow: 6:21

know that the Old Testament law is an expression of God's deep love and care to his people. And that's what I want to talk about. That's lovely. So maybe matching up law with your image of God. So for men, I talked about this last time, but we're talking about a lot lately. But in Strength Finders, yes. LA is one of your strengths. This is not one of my strengths. Context. You said my top five Yeah, but this last time, and it is so important, because you get so much from context, totally surroundings. We talk about being grounded last time. Yes. And, and that's true, especially when we read the Bible, because it is so confounding sometimes. Yes. So it feels complicated. You get lost, like, why is God doing this? Or God saying this? Why is that person doing it? Is that right? All these things you just couldn't get lost? But if you back up, and we're looking at okay, well, what's the setting what's actually happening around what I'm reading? And you get so many clues to help you kind of piece together. This maybe confounding document was written 1000s of years ago, and different culture and language and different assumptions and all these things. Yeah. So when we look at the law we're looking at, just kind of recap the story a little bit. This is Exodus. It's the second book of the Bible we're thinking about. A lot of people think about the 10 commandments. When we think about the Old Testament law where Moses or Charlton Heston is on the top of the mountain coming down with two stone tablets. He's got the, the hair and the beard and the robes and everything. And this picks up the story in Exodus 20, where they're at the mountain, okay, we're at Mount Sinai, it's got two different names, but it's the mountain of God out in the middle of the desert in the middle of nowhere. And these people are there and Moses comes down with the law, but so much has happened to get to them to that point what so much, so we don't have time. Okay, so of Genesis one through Exodus 90, okay. That's like 59 chapters. Wow, okay, a lot. That is a lot of life. Basically, God has chosen a family in Abraham way back in Genesis 12, to reveal himself to the world to the nation's pick, this one family I'm going to be with you are going to be with all your generations, so that the world can be blessed through you. It's beautiful. Sounds nice. Yeah, positive. So by the end of Genesis, this people, God's people are a small group of around 70 or so down in Egypt. Interesting that getting in there. It's a really great story and go back and read it some time. Exodus picks up a few 100 years later, they've been down there for generations, and whereas things were well with them at the end of Genesis, things are not well with them now. Because of their relationship to Egypt, in its government. And its politics. They are now essentially slaves. They're working seven days a week things have changed on the clock. hard labor. It's really not going well. Egyptians are really, they look down on this this race of people. They They not only use them for labor, but they control their population. Wow. So this is This is killing the males of, of the women who give birth a serious birth. Yeah, that's why that's why Moses story. That's why he has to hide in the basket and like push them down the river that like they're desperate that this this boy can live this baby can live off well that's that's their solution. Right so that's his sister Marian was looking for remission he goes into the reeds and then the Egyptian princess Yeah, finds them and raised the takes them into Pharaohs households. Yeah, Moses survives in Pharaoh's household anyway, Prince of Egypt go see it or read the book. Anyways, you fast forward several years, and Moses is now in exile. Because he's murdered in Egyptian trying to stand up for his own people. Right. But it doesn't go well. He's took the law into his own hands. Yeah. He's out, tending sheep tending the flocks of his father and Loggins up getting married. See lots skipping? Okay. Very brief. And he's out. And this is where he has that experience where there's some there's this bush, that seems to be on fire. Right? Not burning up. Yeah, being consumed. So it's like, that's strange. There's not a lot to do. And we'll have nowhere tending sheep. So it's like, I'll go to look. Right. So this is where he has this encounter this first encounter with with God. And God says, basically says to him, I'm, I'm not far off. I've heard the cries of my people. I know what's going on. I've seen them. And I hear them. Right? And so this is Exodus three. And so he sends Moses back. He wants them to be his, his, his mouthpiece is ambassador to Pharaoh to go tell Pharaoh. Let my people go.

Vanessa Caruso: 11:51

Oh, this is all before. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Andy Withrow: 11:55

Okay. All before then. This is like Exodus five through seven is? Is God confronting Pharaoh confronting his peoples oppressor, the one who's the slave driver? In the murder? Right? And then Exodus seven through 15 Is the recounting of God's delivering of his people from Pharaoh. Pharaohs oppression. So that's the, the other 10 words against Egypt. So yeah, 10 words here in Exodus 20. The what we call the commandments. You get the 10 words or you say curses or works against Pharaoh in the plagues? No way. Yeah, there's 10 of them.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:38

Really legs. Yeah. And then you get 10 words later words. Yes. This is intentional. That is so cool. I never heard that relationship before. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 12:48

And you get these 10 plugs in it culminates on this 10th one. That's the death blow literally. And Pharaoh finally lets them go for a while, and then they leave and that's where you have the parting of the Red Sea, this miraculous deliverance when they're trapped because Pharaoh changes his mind and goes after them and then the sea collapses in on the enemy. And God's people Hebrews are safe on the other side out in the middle of nowhere out in the wilderness. So he delivers them and then they're in the wilderness from chapter 16 to 19 We always forget this part. But how many years is that? It's I think it's just a few weeks. Oh, okay. Yeah, but there's nothing to eat. Oh, and there's nothing to drink okay, because it's the middle of nowhere Yeah, desert that's and God provides for them. Is that mana? i Yeah, I think the man that comes in here. I can't remember because there's man there's quail. Yeah, I'd have to go back and look. And then there's there's water. Yeah, out of raw nowhere. Yep. And then and then that's when they come to the mountain.

Vanessa Caruso: 13:50

Okay. That does feel different to know all that. Okay, before the mountain.

Andy Withrow: 13:57

So and in in Exodus 19 God tells them I want to be with you all of this all of this is so that we can have relationship I am your God you are my people. And I want to go with you and be in your midst. This is this is pretty nuts. This is not something that that we you get in other cultures in the ancient Near East. This makes Israel stand out like a God designed to be present and showing up on this mountain and revealing himself. So this this is the setting of the 10 commandments. Okay. Okay. The setting is God already loves them. He's heard them he cares about them. And he's rescued them. He's saved them out of this. This space,

Vanessa Caruso: 14:50

which probably felt impossible. Yeah. To be for their lives to be different than what it was adequately

Andy Withrow: 14:56

shifted. changed. Yeah, there they'd been delivered out of this impossible horrible situation. They would not have been able to do themselves. Yeah. And, and now now, the setting is relationships love rescue relationship. Okay. So now how might thinking about this story this background? changed the tone of the 10 commandments or the law? For you?

Vanessa Caruso: 15:24

It does Andy so well yeah, it totally changes it. It doesn't feel like some arbitrary. Okay, now I'm gonna like, I can't think of the phrase something about like showing your right arm or something like strong arming. It feels so much more like the next chapter in something more like a love story.

Andy Withrow: 16:02

Yeah, well, attention has to change the purpose, right. So if for one, it can't be these are for our salvation, we have to check these boxes in order for them to like us or love us or want to do anything in our lives. That cannot be true. He's already done everything right in terms of bringing them out of this awful space. So fast forward to the Christian life. And maybe growing up in the church or, or working out a relationship with God. And whatever that is. It's the easiest one is to think I need to be good, in order to be loved. Not even just not just with our relationships with God with our that's, that's a tendency for us for anything, because I have to prove myself, I have to be likable. I have to be a good person, I have to fill in the blank, I have to do this, I have to be enough of something in order to be worthy in order to be loved. But then God in this story, and he's going to the story as a pattern for the whole New Testament is saying, actually, when you were a mess, and probably considered unlovable. And before you even knew one commandment, to please me, and to do what I want, I loved you then and I rescued you, then

Vanessa Caruso: 17:31

that's so cool. It's like the counterpart to that verse in the New Testament. While we were still

Andy Withrow: 17:38

Paul in Romans while we were still dead, yeah, in our offenses, in our inability to check the boxes to do anything that pleases God. God demonstrated His love for us. That Christ died for us while we were still centered he so this is the new Exodus we're talking about that God does a new deliverance for not just Israel, but for that invites everybody in. That's a bigger, even a bigger deliverance than the political one in Egypt. Because this has to do with our whole lives and our souls and our are the deepest parts of who we are. Is God delivering us but anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves, we got to get them to the law. Okay.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:25

Okay, context matters,

Andy Withrow: 18:27

big size. Everything, the law cannot whatever the law is for it can't be to, to, for us to to impress. Go ahead. Yeah, to get God's attention. Like, look, God, how good I'm doing. Yeah. That's kind of a big deal. What is the purpose? If it's not for that? What's it for

Vanessa Caruso: 18:50

Hindi tell us?

Andy Withrow: 18:53

The Law, God is giving us a gift. Here's the whole setting, like I want to be in relationship with you. This is how to be in relationship with me and one another. That's, that's the law. Now that so Exodus 20, got the 10 commandments, those are the ones we remember, mostly, maybe get seven out of 10 of them from memory or whatever. But then it goes on. Like it's longer. There's more. There's, there's more lists after that. Okay, this is how you live together, right? So all these all these laws in that it's hard for us to read because they can they can kind of be a little bit specific. Yeah. And they can feel non relevant. But we'll get to that back to that in a second. Okay, but just let's just stay on this, that there's this gift of here's how to be in relationship with me. And one another.

Vanessa Caruso: 19:43

That sounds beautiful, Brent. Yes, it sounds a little bit more like a map.

Andy Withrow: 19:48

Yeah. Let's, let's live together. Here's how we're going to do that.

Vanessa Caruso: 19:53

And I'll get really specific you know, when a friend is not doing well or a partner or something like that. And they are able to say really specifically, you know, what would help me so much is if you would blank. And you're like, Thank you. Thank you for telling me you would blink at no blank fill in the blank. Blank. Yeah, you know, they like fill in the blank. Like, if you could pick up friends have COVID Right now the whole family. And so I ran into another friend and she said, Oh, yeah, I just texted him like, you know, what can I pick up and they said toilet paper? So she dropped off toilet paper, it's like really helpful. When someone's like, Yeah, we could really use toilet paper and you're like, got it? Yeah, I'm gonna get that sort of trying to guess yes. It's just like, the possibilities are overwhelming. When someone can be really specific about this is how I would, this would really help this would really make me feel loved. Whatever. Yeah, huge gift.

Andy Withrow: 20:54

Israel definitely thought this way the Old Testament is filled with, with these ideas that the law is a gift with thanksgiving for the law. It's very counterintuitive for us. It's, it's like writing a love song to the law. Could you imagine a love song to the law. This is Psalm 119, the longest chapter in the Bible is a love song. To the law. Wow, it doesn't stand out other than for length. It's like this is all over the Psalms, it's all over the Old Testament is what a gift. God has given his people in giving them the law. Wow. And it's like they understood it. What it was for it was to know how to be in relationship with a God who desired to be present to them. And that was unique in Israel, from what I can understand looking at other this surrounding cultures is the gods were mysterious. He didn't know how to please them. They didn't communicate what they wanted. So you guessed and you did all sorts of things to try to get their attention to try to please them all sorts of sacrifices and all this and that and the other. And so for in there's other law codes that overlap with with the 10 commandments, but they're the ways that they overlap are all with the horizontal how we relate to one another, like don't murder, the adultery stuff, right? How to Treat your neighbor. So

Vanessa Caruso: 22:21

you're saying is your ancient Near East? That kind of thing,

Andy Withrow: 22:26

that kind of thing that was common. You saw that like the code of Hammurabi is a famous one nice similar kind of stuff. Yeah. But this Hort, this vertical one, what how to relate to God, or this particular God? You don't have that interest is different. That stands out in the 10. Yeah. And in the law of Israel.

Vanessa Caruso: 22:47

Wow, it's so so different than how the connotations with the 10 commandments are with the law.

Andy Withrow: 22:56

I think it's difficult for us, because our relationship to law is very I don't remember what the word is, but it's very, we think of the legal system and the court. Yeah. And the codes, the law codes, and yes, you get a ticket and this and this. Yeah. And law in the ancient world function very differently. These kinds of writings, they are more seen as wisdom. Yeah, this is how to live how to live love it like that. So Darrell Johnson, titled his sermon series on the 10 commandments as the manufacturer's specifications. Oh, my God, you get the idea? Yeah. This is the one who created all of creation in you and me. And he's letting us in on how we work best in relationship to him to one another into the creation. Yeah, it's beautiful. And it's a wisdom emphasis, rather than a punitive justice emphasis. I think those the other side of the Justice stuff is still it comes into it. But it's much more about here's how to make life work out. If you want to live with this God. And if you want to live well with one another. This is here's here's how to do it.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:03

It kind of sounds like God's rule of life. I love a Rule of Life. Like it's, it's a beautiful idea. It's on my strengths finder. It's such a beautiful way to me to demonstrate a love for life and for God. And for the life God has given me Yeah, is a Rule of Life. It kind of sounds a little bit like God's rule of life. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 24:30

So if we if the Israelites didn't see this as like a huge burden, like oh my gosh, now we have all these rules to do they saw it very differently. Yeah. And I think like what a treasure yeah, there's an invitation for us in this as well. To say, Oh, how do we how do we approach this as an invitation to relationship and to the the series that we're doing at the table were for the 10 pounds we're trying to live a life of rescue Trying to keep remembering the setting out of which these come. It's like God rescues. Moses had already violated one of the commandments by murdering someone. Right. And he chose Moses. Yeah, to be the deliverer of the people and to bring the law down. And so it kind of frees us up from this burden of oh, I have to have this checklist to do into like, no, no, that's an invitation to wise living into good living.

Vanessa Caruso: 25:28

Yeah, it does. I

Andy Withrow: 25:29

think it does have meaning. Consequences. Want to like water it down. Yeah, that's important. But it's just a shift in terms of how we receive and, and live with the law. As a as a good thing. And maybe, maybe law is such a hard word. Torah literally means instruction.

Vanessa Caruso: 25:46

Like here's even that is different instruction to do it. It's helpful. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 25:53

So we get bogged down like that. The 10 are, kind of make some sense to us. Because they're, they're fairly, they're fairly big picture stuff. And then it gets it gets into this a bit into the nitty gritty. Like, that can feel arbitrary or strange or weird to, like, for example, one of them is that you have to have a parapet on the roof. Okay, which is like a subtle kind of enclosure, like a fence. Yeah. And the reason for that is because the type of houses that the Israelites would have, you did a lot of living up on the roof. Really? Yeah. Like you use the whole part of the house. It's like your patio wasn't like it was flat, and for safety and for wellbeing, and hospitality for your neighbor who might be over No way. And their kids, you better have a parapet on your roof. That's the law. Okay, it'd be responsible.

Vanessa Caruso: 26:54

Okay. But that's such a good metaphor for the law in a way, like the the roof fence care about? Yeah. In order to increase hospitality safety, well being generosity, because you might be like, well, we'd have them over the neighbors, but we don't have our fence. So that's just too stressful. So we're not going to

Andy Withrow: 27:18

it doesn't apply to us because we don't have we don't live on our roofs. We don't have life on our roofs. Yeah. But we should probably have a fence around our patio or deck.

Vanessa Caruso: 27:28

I mean, talk to well about that. It like increases or Yeah, our yard but our deck

Andy Withrow: 27:32

like just you know that that makes sense. Oh, love it. Others.

Vanessa Caruso: 27:38

I love it and love stuff like that. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 27:40

So so this is where it gets tricky. Because we look at the Old Testament law, is it still binding? Or is it not? It's like, well, yes. And no, it's like, this was for Israel a few 1000 years ago. The big 10 I think are pointing to much bigger things like that hasn't those have not largely changed is still cast in the language of a certain society that needs to be adjusted a little bit. But they're but they're much bigger things that get particularized in the way that the Israelites lived. It is just different from the way that we lived. But you still want to care about your you still. And this one Jesus sums it up. Love God with everything you got. Love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. put a fence around your deck.

Vanessa Caruso: 28:25

I love it. Right. I want to read all those. Particularly some of

Andy Withrow: 28:30

them are really like there's so they they're maybe just lost, like, what does something going on? That was important for that. But a lot of them you can kind of do a little bit thinking like okay for them.

Vanessa Caruso: 28:42

But doesn't that give you inspiration about our lives? Like the the idea that God would care? So much? Yeah, that there is actually a way to live in 2022 on Vancouver Island. Well, yeah. Lovingly in our context, which feels so mixed and difficult and weird. And hard. Yeah. That's amazing. So inspirational.

Andy Withrow: 29:17

Yeah, so So Jesus Christ. So in part of the thing when Jesus comes on the scene, the laws important to him, I've come to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. I've kind of like the law is good, like instructions are good. They've not changed. God hasn't changed. Some of the particulars get changed. And he's going to do away with some of the do away with because he fulfills them like some of the food laws and some of those particulars that were specific and important for a time because they related to the temple. And in Jesus view, the new temple is here. So we're going to shift some of these things. God isn't chain inched, but how we're relating to God is changing because of Jesus with how we're connecting how this relationship piece gets shifted a little bit. But you look at these 10. And they they're still very helpful for us to figure out how do we do that? So we look at the first four kind of pertaining to our relationship with God. And then the last six, a bit more of the horizontal, like how do we connect well with one another. And Jesus coming in fulfilling that and showing us how to do it well in reminding us like, Don't get bogged down in the details. Remember the heart that's where he got a lot of that. sparring with the Pharisees is the Pharisees were great because they cared about the law. And their view was the reason we're in trouble is because we've not cared about the law. And Jesus. I think one argument one good argument why Jesus fight so much to the Pharisees is because they're actually the closest, he doesn't go out to the scenes. Yeah, we're living out in the middle of nowhere, because of their theology. He sometimes interacts with the Sadducees. But they have such a different theology, you don't conflict as much, the Pharisees and Jesus conflict so much, because they both care so much about the law. Interesting. And Jesus says you're missing, you're missing the heart the bigger point of this, which is you gets expressed in the Sermon on the Mount. Go the extra mile, give him if he asked for, to Nick give him two. Right. So he's trying to point the law is about generosity and love, not about these, not about freedom, right and freedom. Like, let it let the Torah, the instruction, capture your heart. That's what God cares about not just, again, checking the boxes and getting getting misguided on what the laws for

Vanessa Caruso: 31:53

Wow, interesting.

Andy Withrow: 31:56

Love God with everything you've got. Love your neighbor as yourself, that sums up the law fulfill the law, and the prophets.

Vanessa Caruso: 32:07

Wow. Even that makes has is like juicy are kind of in context to the 10 commandments in the law that was given. And how you said the longest chapter in the Bible is a love letter to the law to the instructions given by God that God would communicate himself in such specific ways for the purpose of doing life together,

Andy Withrow: 32:38

they said it was more valuable to them than gold. Like that knowledge, that insight. And this has to do with Revelation because the the implication the deep implication of this is that this is not some of this is not intuitive. Like people were dying in the ancient world, trying to figure out what the gods wanted. And it was not clear like you get some clues through creation, because it's God's handiwork. So you get you get a bit of sense about the artists. But the this is the the kids are doing youth alpha. And the the great example he had is if someone makes you a cake, and it gives it to you can, you know that maybe there was like, it's a nice cake. It's really good, they're good. But you don't know that much about who the cooking or the chef is? Or the baker is right? Without them actually, you would know who it was. It's the same thing with create like God is, this is another important dimension to all this is that God is not like us in so many ways. He's not like his creator. He's different. He's separate. And so it is truly like this encounter at Sinai, you go back and read it. It's it's pretty nuts. It's like, it's like a Alien Encounter. Yeah, it's like some other being is making contact. Yeah, and intense. And I think we tend in my experience in Christian circles, we can tend to think of God like ourselves totally make him in our own image, which is the second commandment don't do that. Because like I am unlike anything in heaven and earth, and the seas beneath you. There's there's nothing in creation or your imagination that will capture who I am.

Vanessa Caruso: 34:23

Okay, Andy, how you keep How do you do number two, then did you say that was number two? Yeah. Are we gonna get to that Manish

Andy Withrow: 34:29

no image we'll get I think we'll do that. I think we'll do that one. Because it's a really important like, how

Vanessa Caruso: 34:34

do you live keeping in mind that God is nothing like, well, not maybe nothing like but way different, bigger than anything. You can we can imagine. Like, how do you live with that?

Andy Withrow: 34:50

Yeah. That's that's a good question. I mean, have you ever tried to imagine a being that has no beginning? No. It's hard to do. Yeah. There's a limit to our imagination and this is the is the danger in the warning of, of boxing God in and is your idiot You're right. It's a human propensity. That's why idolatry was such a problem. That's why everyone made idols, like physical idols in the ancient world is like they needed something tangible, something to see that and we still do. Yeah, when we haven't changed. I mean, it feels like we have because we don't use that land, a lot of us in North America don't have that kind of relationship with physical idols. But you could make the case that we still do this, and Jamie Smith will go into that with a cultural liturgies stuff and other other things that are tangible visual cues of that shape our values and what we value most, which is the definition of worship, what are we ascribing the most worth to? But anyway, let's save that for let's save that to kind of dive in. Cuz I think there's a lot there to unpack. Yeah. But in the meantime, I think the important thing to remember is, we would not have gotten here on our own. who this God is what this God is like the nature and character of God, it requires a revealing a self disclosure, that there is God, there is a connection for us to God because he's made us and there's this, this image, but there's also this, this otherness that we have to be let in on. And so that's the important of the important tense of this revealing that we get the words of God that we get. That's so beautiful, why they wrote these loves, like, thank you so much for this insight. Yeah, we get we get inside info on who you are. Yeah. It's pretty special.

Vanessa Caruso: 36:47

It's so beautiful. God's self disclosure. I love that through these instructions. Through these like wisdom pieces.

Andy Withrow: 36:57

Yeah. So and so I think it's time to wrap up. I just want to hear from you. One. Your one takeaway? Oh, gosh, morning that if if God told you, I'm gonna let you remember just one thing from this morning for the rest of your life and never forget it. What would it be?

Vanessa Caruso: 37:16

Wow, Andy fresher is on okay. While I think about it, how about from you? Like you've you've been working on this series? So I know you're so excited about so much of it. But how, what does it change for you? The context and this reorientation? around like what the 10 commandments actually are?

Andy Withrow: 37:40

Yeah, I think the one thing is that that big piece of this is God out of love revealing Himself to us. That's such a shift to think what what does the law mean to you, God out of love for us revealing Himself to us, that's the law. That's the instruction like, Hey, this is who I am. And this is who you are. And that that setting is one of rescue, instead of getting it the other way around the cart before the horse like, Oh, we got to do this and this and this, and then God will, will do what we want or love us or whatever. It's not that kind of relationship. That's pretty.

Vanessa Caruso: 38:16

It's beautiful. Okay, I think my main, like what's evoked for me, if I had to narrow it down from all this is like, the feeling of being given some, some treasure, like cherishing something. Like I think of being a younger girl. And just having a book that I absolutely love. Like Shel Silverstein's Where the Sidewalk Ends, or loves Nancy Drew, and Anna Green Gables, and walking around with like this treasure of words. And thinking of the law like that, and thinking of the Bible like that, rather than this thing that hangs over my head. I think that's the alternate image is kind of walking with, with some things hanging over my head that I can't quite live up to and it feeling like I'm in I'm in a catch 22 Yeah, like I don't know how to sew. So one image is like kind of darker was something hanging over my head. The other one is like, the the world opens up. And I I like, hold on to this beautiful thing. I was given like this beautiful thing I found that's that's what I'm taking away.

Andy Withrow: 39:42

Yeah. Yeah, like a new world of possibilities, and adventure and excitement. That's a good that's a good image.

Vanessa Caruso: 39:51

It makes me want to rewrite one of the Psalms not like the whole thing, but what would it mean? Yeah. Yeah, just give it a little quick revision. But instead of law to take, you know, 10 of the verses, I'll do it. And I'll see what it's like and substitute something else in there. And see if it helps me get in touch with. Yeah, that posture of gratitude. Intimacy, like, how honored? Yeah, they must have felt to get this. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Well, Andy, thanks. This is this is like the setting for the 10 commandments. And then you want to talk about some of them right later.

Andy Withrow: 40:39

We'll see. I think the image one for sure. Because there's so much it's really fascinating. What's one that maybe disconnects with us because like, well, we don't do that. Yeah, I just skip over that one. But we do like it just it's fun for us. So that'd be fun. And I think I think we could do a good one on that. So we'll see. Well, we'll do one or two of them and see what happens.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:59

Well, art is the Sermon on the Mount, the counterpart to the 10 commandments.

Andy Withrow: 41:04

I think in some ways it is the Beatitudes nine of them. Pretend that it's like

Vanessa Caruso: 41:13

interest interesting.

Andy Withrow: 41:14

Was the blessing.

Vanessa Caruso: 41:18

Okay, you just changed the battle. Sandy

Andy Withrow: 41:26

was back in a couple of weeks. I don't know. If he knows.

Vanessa Caruso: 41:30

No, age, don't remember. The next time