ADVENT: Mary & Elizabeth

Andy Withrow: 0:02

Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table radio, where we aim to integrate belief and practice

Vanessa Caruso: 0:09

in the Christian. And Ron, yeah, great. We are nice to be back. So we're going to talk about Mary and Elizabeth today. And Luke. Yes. So I just thought it would be helpful to some, perhaps, to say the obvious, which is that in Advent, there are a lot of images around pregnancy, and babies. So we are both aware of friends in our lives who have some hurts in this area, either longing to have a child, or a longing to be able to carry a pregnancy full term, or to even get pregnant. So just wanted to say at the outset of this, that some of those themes will come up. And if that feels too tender of an area, you are welcome to skip this episode, although we will keep it in mind as we share our reflections.

Andy Withrow: 1:24

So yeah, let's start out with the story. Yeah. Do you want to read?

Vanessa Caruso: 1:28

Sure, I'll read it. Great. You know, there's so many stories in the Bible that we know more than others. And I always have this little feeling before getting to one of those stories. Maybe I don't know if you have this, but you're sitting in church, and the pastor says, like, we're gonna talk about the sower and the seed, or Mary and Martha, and you're like, oh, been there?

Andy Withrow: 1:50

Well, yeah, you have one or two reaction, like, Oh, it's my favorite. I love that we're here. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:56

That one again. So um, I just like to remember that scriptures life. And there's new things all the time for us, you know, just because we know all these, some of us know all these Advent stories really well, like they're just so much part of our narrative, that there might be something fresh in here for us. Are you ready? I'm ready. This one is about Mary and Elizabeth. And I guess since I'm reading it out loud. People who are listening can kind of listen for what stands out to them. That's always fun to just see. What is it that registers with me? And for what reason? So this is Luke one starting at 39. Mary set out in those days and went to the hill country with haste to a Judy in town. There she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. Now, When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth exclaimed with a loud cry. Bless it, are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb? From where does this visit come to me? That the mother of my sovereign comes to me? Look, as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting in my ear, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Now bless it is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of those things spoken to her by the Holy One? Is that the same passage here?

Andy Withrow: 3:37

Yeah, but then mine keeps going, oh, what else does it then Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord. Oh, and my spirit rejoices and God my savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on, all generations will call me blessed. For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with his arm. He has scattered the proud of the thoughts of their hearts. He has brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of humble estate. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty. He has helped us serve in Israel in remembrance of his mercy, as he spoke to our fathers to Abraham, to his offspring forever. And Mary remained with her with Elizabeth for about three months and returned to her home. State three months yeah. Very song. Right. We're both we're both preaching this. Yes. An adventure. Two to four weeks. It looks like I have to preach twice as much as you do.

Vanessa Caruso: 4:48

Yeah, if you do the Magnificat too. That's big.

Andy Withrow: 4:53

Yeah, it is. It's a big song. So yeah, let's jump in here. Let's just I mean, we don't have we both neither of us really have an outline at this point. We're just kind of looking at kind of reflecting on things that that kind of struck us with the story. So if it is once you start with one of yours, and then we'll kind of go, we'll trade. We'll trade nuggets, great. Nuggets.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:17

Well, this is this is really little one, but just something I hadn't noticed before. Just that this is there's a travel situation happening here. Yeah. Marry it. I looked it up and it's something like 70 miles from where she was to get good. That's a good hike. Really, like really good.

Andy Withrow: 5:37

That's 70 miles. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 5:39

that's what it said to the hill country, right?

Andy Withrow: 5:43

Yeah, I was reading something probably somewhere south of Jerusalem is likely was a Hebron.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:47

Remember? That sounds familiar, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So that and the haste, there's that she went there with haste. I just felt comforted. Because the Advent slash Christmas season in North America tends to have for at least middle class people tends to have a lot of travel. And I mean, seriously, and

Andy Withrow: 6:21

it's time to go to grandma's Make haste to get your coat. Exactly. Go to the bathroom before we leave.

Vanessa Caruso: 6:27

Yeah. Hurry up. Yeah, all that stuff. And in the, you know, some of the the worlds I occupy now, you know, spiritual formation and the contemplative tradition and spiritual direction. There's, there's a lot around the spacious life and the cultivated life, flow life. And I love all these things and feel like they're needed for our modern context. But

Andy Withrow: 6:54

you're wondering if there's a time to make haste?

Vanessa Caruso: 6:56

Well, I just love that it's a reality. Right? That's what I mean. Like, it's, it's not necessarily a liability or a doesn't disqualify us. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 7:09

But it makes me think of, why is Mary making haste? What's her hurry in this? In this setting?

Vanessa Caruso: 7:15

Good question. I

Andy Withrow: 7:16

hadn't thought about is it? Is it excitement about what's happened about what the previous episode was just been told to her the news? Yeah. In the previous episode, she learned that the angel appears to her and you will have get the language right here.

Vanessa Caruso: 7:35

You will have

Andy Withrow: 7:38

you found favor with God, behold, you will conceive in your womb bear a son calls named Jesus, he'll be great, called the Son of the Most High Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and his kingdom will there will be no end. The Holy Spirit will come upon you in the power of the most time overshadow you, therefore, the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. So she learns that's kind of a big thing. And then she also learns next that her relative, Elizabeth, in her old age has also conceived a son. Yeah. And she's in the sixth month.

Vanessa Caruso: 8:16

Oh, it says that. Yeah. Well, that's probably why

Andy Withrow: 8:21

she said it says why she said three. Yeah, that's three. Do

Vanessa Caruso: 8:25

you think she was there for John the Baptist? His

Andy Withrow: 8:26

birth? Well? Yes,

Vanessa Caruso: 8:30

you think so? Yeah. How do you know? I don't? Oh,

Andy Withrow: 8:33

you thought so? Oh, yeah. That was three nine. I mean, it would be it would be too bad to stay like nine months and then be like, he's coming any day. I'm just gonna go

Vanessa Caruso: 8:45

70 mile hike. That's why she stayed. It kind of massive time. I was kind of thinking perhaps had something to do with her. Her timing like, you know, the scandalous nature of her being pregnant and just maybe she maybe it was around the time when she would start to really show Yeah. And she was able to cover you know, hide it for a bit at this point. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But there's haste

Andy Withrow: 9:16

but if it's in the it just I mean, this is all speculative. Yeah, but it's is fascinating. Because this she's in the six months she says three is a nice fit but that'd be the first three months presumably of Mary's pregnancy where she probably isn't showing us much to kind of comes back at the time that you're pregnant. Yeah. Weird, which is interesting, but but Could be. Could be anticipation could be excitement. astonishment, or what's been said and announced excitement for her relative Elizabeth who in her old age, conceived and sharing seek the two women sharing a secret. Yeah, and that sounds like a really Amazing. Positive Yeah. Yeah, it does this whole scene is about rejoicing and wonder.

Vanessa Caruso: 10:10

Yeah. So don't you like that haste is in here. You know that popular book that ruthless elimination of hurry? Yeah. It's basically the ruthless elimination of haste. Yeah. But here there is. Here is a positive Hey, yeah. It's like an urgency. And it's motivated by something.

Andy Withrow: 10:32

Yeah, it's like, it's like when you're in the living room reading a book and your kids are playing quietly. And all of a sudden when one goes, and they just think of something, they run back to their room and they go grab something they want to show you or play with or something like a great example. Like, yeah, does exuberance. I don't know. It doesn't we don't. It's not explained. But it's just like, you wonder, because just the whole scene is dripping with sort of wonder and excitement and blessing.

Vanessa Caruso: 11:03

And there's, there's a theme in the story of spontaneity to me. Haste has that has that feel like you said, like, that's, that feels like the expression. Yeah. Getting things together and getting out on time. But also, the leaping for joy mentioned a couple times, yeah, like a belly of a baby leaping in the womb for joy. And Elizabeth's spontaneous, like affirmation and blessing, which precedes Yeah, this beautiful poem from Mary. Yeah, so that was that's just like one of my general observations from the story. Yeah. And wondering what it means for us for adventure is the spontaneous nature of what happens when we are living life with God and sharing it with one another. It just feels like the script is kind of exciting and isn't written. Yet, you know, like, we're, it's being written as we live in. Yeah. So that, that felt exciting to be to think about having adventures because we do tend to hang out with friends and fellow church people and relatives that we enjoy, or, or don't so much. But there is a lot of relating during the season. Yeah, for many of us. And so it just made me wonder what would it be like to have that kind of wonder posture, about the spontaneity what can come? Yeah, when we're just paying attention and in the present moment, and kind of open, open to the spirit really?

Andy Withrow: 12:50

Yeah, I was talking to a friend a couple weeks ago about this passage. And he had said, he said, that's what he felt like he missed is the that will the one and then I didn't even kind of pick up on this theme of wonder he he picked up on it and said, the wonder of it. And I wish I could have like, long for that kind of thing. That kind of experience, not just of Advent, though. Definitely that but just in general. But also definitely Advent like a lot of us, I think have at some point growing up, kind of associate that season with wonder and anticipation. Yeah, it's whether it's gifts under the tree or, or family visiting, like just the child waiting out the window for hours when they know that extended family is on their way and wanting to know, when did they leave? Do they are there any updates? Did they call in? Yeah, you know, are they supposed to be here in the next hour? Or it's gonna be three hours? And we're baking cookies and we're getting, you know, all that kind of stuff?

Vanessa Caruso: 13:53

Yeah, it's kind of an enchanted season.

Andy Withrow: 13:57

I think we missed that. Yeah, a lot of us might miss that. Wish we had it again.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:01

How do we get it back? If we don't have it?

Andy Withrow: 14:06

I don't know. We're not here to point that out. We're just here to point out the desire for great. I wish we had one day I wonder I don't know. Maybe that'll come up. I think someone out there will have an idea right into the show. Yeah, the show.

Vanessa Caruso: 14:26

An echo the show show. Okay. Do you have a nugget. So I guess I know that

Andy Withrow: 14:32

was a good one. I don't want to move on from wonder. Haste and wonder Make haste. That's good. My, the first observation I had was just how the Spirit's role in all of this. It says that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she exclaimed with a loud cry, which Yeah, Interesting or weird? Yeah. Associate feeling with the Holy Spirit with a loud cry. Yeah. Which is this blessing? Plus are you among women and blessed to the fruit of your womb? So that was interesting. And the baby leaps in the womb for joy. For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to me is that even leaped for joy? Is what Elizabeth says. Which is, which is funny?

Vanessa Caruso: 15:34

Yeah. It's so funny. One thing that made me think of is that John the Baptist is already living out his vocation to prophesy about Jesus. And he just does it in I was gonna say in utero is that the right term?

Andy Withrow: 15:58

Gabriel, the angel who appears both to Zechariah. And Mary Zacharias is going to be John the Baptist dad. In chapter one, when he's talking to Zechariah, he'll be great before the before the Lord. You must not drink wine or strong drink, he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. No way.

Vanessa Caruso: 16:18

It says that says that. This is the proof of that

Andy Withrow: 16:21

one, chapter one, verse 15. And sure enough, here he is, yeah. Leaping for joy in Elizabeth's womb.

Vanessa Caruso: 16:38

Yeah, that filled with the Holy Spirit that that's also interesting that John the Baptist is and doesn't it say that Elizabeth, is filled with the Spirit? Yes. Passage to

Andy Withrow: 16:50

Elizabeth in verse 41. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry.

Vanessa Caruso: 16:56

Yeah. Don't you want to be filled with the Holy Spirit?

Andy Withrow: 17:00

Yeah. Well, especially within the context of wonder and blessing, anticipation and the positive kind of haste. Right. Like I think the that ruthless elimination of hurry. I mean, it's all it's seems like it's all in this context of negative haste. But this seems very mobilizing. Yeah. Fun. Yeah. And energetic and in the couldn't not run 70 miles, with all haste to, to see you into to greet you and to talk about what's happened with us. So it's fascinating.

Vanessa Caruso: 17:39

Well, you, you probably know this, because you're who you are. But when I like looked up the commentary on this, it said there is quite a reversal happening here in that Elizabeth is the elder marries the younger. So Elizabeth would have like kind of a higher ranking socially. So for she's kind of the master and married be more like the servant in this dynamic. So for the servant to travel, or Yeah, the servant marry to travel to the master. Makes sense. But Elizabeth kind of reverses all of that by some of

Andy Withrow: 18:18

my Yeah, my that the mother of my Lord, she'd come up.

Vanessa Caruso: 18:25

Yeah, she's kind of you. You picture her kind of like, bowing in reference, like, my, yeah, you're

Andy Withrow: 18:31

right. Mary's Mary's elder, who has a family or I mean, she's, she's married. She's in a household and Elizabeth Elizabeth. Yes. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. She's

Vanessa Caruso: 18:43

like an aunt, and then a little, a nice, a very, very young niece. And yet she, something happens here, where it's all turned over, which is indicative of what Jesus does to people and relationships.

Andy Withrow: 19:01

And that's, I mean, that's the theme of Mary's song. You're right. And is this big reversal? And I think you could also you could also connect that to being in the patriarchal, patriarchal society. I mean, Zechariah is the head of the household here. And Elizabeth is blessing Mary for believing what would be nice, what was told her by the Lord who didn't believe and then you go back to Zechariah story who's like, has this moment, same moment that Mary had same enunciation, but kind of not. Yeah, but not in the middle of nowhere, just like the setting of the announcement to Mary is just in her hometown of Galilee. Presumably just, you know, maybe in your backyard, she's like doing chores or something. But Zechariah is in the temple, the center, the central symbol of of Israel's relationship with God and their their religious class even more reason to believe in their by himself in the holy place. Because he's, he, he drew the lots to go in and, you know, clean it up and stuff. And this is where he has the vision. And you remember his response. He sees an angel who tells them this amazing stuff. And he says, Prove it. How shall I know this? I'm old. And then Gabriel loses patience with him. It's like, well, you want to sign you won't be able to speak Wow. Until, until a child had staff. So I don't think it's accidental that this blessing comes from Elizabeth. to Mary blessing is the one who believed there will be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.

Vanessa Caruso: 20:58

So that last part, am I jumping around too much? No, what you just said, my translation says bless it is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of those things spoken to her by the Holy One. Raz right before that she blessed are you among women. So first, she's talking to Mary and then she's going she goes into third person. Unless it is she which feels a bit like an opening to all of us. You know, it almost sounds like a psalm or like the Beatitudes to me. Yeah, like, bless it is the one who believes that there would be fulfillment of those things spoken to them. Yeah, by the Holy One. Which I really like that to thinking about Advent, like, the story just is so epic, that and rightfully so I just tend to think of the characters in the Bible story is like set apart, you know, like, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, the shepherds. So that kind of way of entering the scripture that we do. Sometimes it's harder for me with advent stuff, like the parables are really fun to kind of imagine, Okay, where am I in the scene? And who's the Pharisee? And what's the invitation. But sometimes the story is just so enchanted and ingrained, that I don't really see where we fit in, you know, like, we're not there's no Immaculate Conception for any of us. Jesus just came once, in a way, or God is human. But that feels like it opens it up to me, and says, like, there's a gate here, you know, bless it. Are you Vanessa, who believes that there will be a fulfillment of those things spoken to you by the holy one in your life,

Andy Withrow: 22:53

I like that. And it makes it's a nice transition into Mary's song because it goes from the the first person or the, I guess, the second person you to the third person, bless it is she and then Mary's has this big song of what it's like to trust in trust in the goodness of God and his his promises. And that he reverses these things universe turns the tables on things. And it's just strikes me that this is a mark of the Holy Spirit's work in the world and in our lives, is if you're looking for evidence of the Holy Spirit, which means very convenient, very different things to very different people, at least in this passage, evidence of the voice marks of the Holy Spirit is this reversal stuff. Like you he works these witch witch issues in this wonder in this anticipation in this positive haste, and excitement and wonder, right? Wow, this is so great. And who would have thought this would have happened? And isn't this wonderful? So you can think of stories in our own lives or in lives of those around us who've, like, thought one thing was impossible and wasn't going to happen in that. Yeah. Well, look what happened.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:10

Yeah. That I love that. The reversal is a sign of the spirit, or the possible the impossible. becoming possible.

Andy Withrow: 24:24

Yeah. Yes. And it's not just here. It's not just here. It's this is Mary's song is very similar to Hannah's song from for Samuel. If you remember when she also she was sort of in Elizabeth's spot of unable to conceive. And she goes to they make their journeys year after year to the to the to the tabernacle, Oh, okay. And she prays and that's where Eli the priest at the time Less is her. And she in a similar way is able to conceive as this is the birth story of Samuel becomes a leader in Israel and she has a song in I think it's the first or second chapter must be the second chapter. I Samuel I feel like I don't know it very similar. And I won't read the whole thing. But just see if you think that this is

Vanessa Caruso: 25:29

and then Miriam has a song to write. And Mary and Miriam kind of sound like they

Andy Withrow: 25:35

are Yeah, from the IRS. When when they came through the Red Sea, that's right. So this is Chapter Two of First Samuel. Hannah prayed and said, My heart exalts in the Lord, my horn is exalted in the Lord. My mouth derides my enemies because the rejoicing your salvation, there's none holy like the Lord. So many says almost the same thing. There's none besides, you know, rock like our God, talk no more so very proudly, that let not arrogance come from your mouth, For the Lord is a God of knowledge. And by him actions are way the bowels of the mighty are broken. But the feeble bind on strength, those who are full of hire themselves out for bread, but those who are hungry have ceased to hunger. The Baron has born seven but she has many children is for Lauren, she goes on but that same South reversal themes of God at work in in his people. So not an isolated incidents is my point. This is like the story that God weaves in through history, time and time and time again.

Vanessa Caruso: 26:45

Good nugget. Good night, Andy. Great, and I get your turn. Okay, this, this is kind of my, my main thought about this passage is that it just reminds me of spiritual direction. Which, you know, even if you don't know what spiritual direction is kind of formally, I think intuitively, we know what it is to be like a spiritual friend to someone. Meaning that there's a way of being with one another that is different than the kind of problem solving, advice giving way that there is in the world, like, you know, you, I tell you about something and you're like, something that's hard in my life or something and you say, like, Well, have you tried this, or have you thought about this, or maybe it's because of this, and it just feels like me, something about that kind of responding isn't really opening up a space in me for whatever it is that I'm looking for. So spiritual companioning, or kind of being a soul friend, is something that many of us do, naturally, in a few of our relationships, it's like this attentive way of being with each other that suspend some of those instincts to fix or to problem solve, or to get out of the, the mystery or the ambivalence of the situation. And kind of be with the person in a, in a big way. So I thought, wow, this is such a great example of, of spiritual accompaniment, what what Elizabeth does for Mary in particular. But I don't know if this is too, too nuanced to share. But I am a spiritual director, and in my own kind of practice of that, like my own growth. As a spiritual director. There's kind of this spectrum. And I wonder if other people would relate with this, from what I was talking about that kind of problem solving, advice giving. And the other side of the spectrum might be like just a very non judgmental, Nanning anxious presence, where you can tend to think actually, my job is to not say anything, or do anything, or have a point of view or disagree with anything. And sometimes in my, my field, in my world, it can feel like that's the right way is to just almost be a blank slate, where you just like listen, and you're just a good listener, and, and you don't say anything, or take any risks, or kind of react to anything. So in my own, mature maturing as a spiritual director, I've been looking for some place kind of in between those two. And that feels like we're where I want to grow. And I feel like Liz Elizabeth kind of demonstrates this, because she is very in tune with her own body and her own point of view, which is what we actually want when we're sharing our lives with somebody, you know, and she's able to do that she's very in tune and then she, she also is able to affirm And bless the other person. So that's what was kind of evocative for me was. There's this idea. In spiritual accompaniment, that presence is what you're going for more than insight. So to really be present to someone kind of has this body, yours kind of centered in your body a little bit more, rather than inside, I tend to think of as coming from my head. Like, if I'm listening to you, and I'm trying to, like, have some revelation for you, or some insight into what's going on, I can kind of stay up top. Whereas Elizabeth's experience is a little instead of top down presence, versus it feels a little bit more bottom up, which is a thing in neurobiology and stuff, top top down is more the cognition was we're bringing science, you know, I barely know anything about science, just the stuff that the top down is kind of the cognitive way. And the bottom up way of attuning to someone is the sensation way. Yeah. And she is all about sensation. Like there's, in a way like the, you know, the baby in her belly, which is what an area that we talk a lot about when we talk about insight and intuition. And gut is like, you know, had a gut instinct.

Andy Withrow: 31:20

Yeah, was it that's, it's really interesting to me now. Because my, my sense is like, those two can't be separated. Your presence and insight belong together insight without presence seems really unhelpful. And presence without insight might still be held. Well, I guess they're both helpful. Yeah. But they're, but they can maybe violate things or not be as helpful as when they're when they're held together. Yeah. What you're talking about? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And even the concept thing about the concept of blessing has everything to do with presence. Yeah. the Spirit's presence in this case, or God's presence, in naming blessing and naming are tied together. Yeah. Which requires insight. Yeah. Yeah. So there's some interesting things going on there.

Vanessa Caruso: 32:09

Yeah, it feels a little abstract. To me. Still, like even the word presence, it's such a popular word and away and you're like, what does it actually mean? Like, I just want to be present to you and write what you know. What does that look like? But I feel like she there is. There are clues here. There's something about Elizabeth's ability to both know what's going on in her. Yeah, pay attention to another and then Yeah, take that. Take that step of speaking, and naming. You know, in the loud cry, like that's pretty, she's pretty in the moment, to exclaim with a loud cry. So that just made me wonder, okay, what would it look like to, to cultivate that? And I think it's what we have talked about a lot already, it's kind of the belief and practice, which this podcast is all about, integrating the two. Because in order to be present to other people, we have to continue to learn how to be present to ourselves and present to God. Like they, it all is one cloth, yeah. So to make space in our lives and recognize that we need both, we need like the outlet and the expression of being with each other, affirming one another. Taking risks of vulnerability, taking risks of, of blessing. And then also that time it takes to get to know in our bodies, in our emotions, in our stories, what does what does God look like and what does the Holy Spirit how does the Holy Spirit express themselves in my life? What did that feel like? Like the people that were cut to the heart you know, in Acts by Peters preaching, maybe, you know, it's like, there appears to the harder cuts of the heart feel similar to me to Elizabeth's my belly leaped. There's like this internal resonance with what is going on in the outside world. And learning how to name that recognize it cultivate it, thank God for it feels like the work of our kind of inner life.

Andy Withrow: 34:28

Yeah, yeah. It seems like a waking up. In some ways, even going back to thinking of my conversation with my friend about oh, I missed that wonder or that sense of wonder in the world or in life. And just feeling our senses dulled or grown a bit cynical, or, or, or whatever. Yeah, just wait like, Oh, no awakening to God at work. Yeah. In our lives in the spirit. work in our lives? Yeah, like that. It's good. It's tied to with another episode that we've done. By the time this airs, I think will have aired. But the idea of because the previous one is, in some ways, we're talking about bearing Christ. Like, literally, Mary is literally bearing Christ literally. Right, but she becomes this model for the church, this this symbol for us, that we also bear Christ not in the exact way that Mary did, but in in a significant and meaningful way. And that for those who bear Christ, there is a blessing. Because of the presence again, yeah. And so I guess the question is, what does it mean, we talked about this last time in the series of episodes of reading, but just thinking about what it means to bear Christ, carry him with us wherever we go. And that can be something that's done, consciously, and maybe even unconsciously, it's like, when Mary was walking around for those nine months, pregnant with Christ with Jesus. She wasn't always constantly aware of him. She probably often was, yeah. But often was just going about life. Yeah, but still bearing Christ. And so is a helpful image for me of thinking about. It's not all dependent on my efforts, or my consciousness. That God is whether or not I'm thinking about him. Yeah, and the object permanence that we hopefully learn as infants have to relearn as adults for some of these things. That we can still be bearers of Christ, regardless of our awareness of it. And that knowing or trusting that can help our awareness of it. So it's not so dependent, not this. I have to work so hard at my spirituality. Yeah. Not that that's not necessarily like there's good work to do there. But that this is true. Regardless of my awareness, all that, yeah, I love that. And your rest have to allow that for rest. I can rest in knowing that I bear the marks in the presence of Jesus with me as I go as the Spirit's work in my life. If I'm, you know, if I can, if I'm a Christian, from my ultimate allegiance, signified by my baptism, to Jesus is such, then I'm going to trust that he was with me, even when I'm going about my life, and that I bear Christ's presence as I go. Mm hmm. And sometimes I have the joy of remembering. And re igniting and awakening the wonder of it and what that means, and looking at being awake, to two that are being aware of that. And I think that's where the some of this language of Mary's song comes into magnify the Lord Rejoice in the Lord remember, our this blessing this presence that goes with us? And, and she doesn't have a distinction between or controversy, a contradiction between rejoicing in the Lord and fearing the Lord. Those two her arm, they belong together. Yeah. Join the Lord, fearsome bolt, or our make sense to her, in her in her understanding of who God is. Wow, that's cool. I think for me, that helps restore some of the that wonder stuff was so much bigger. Yeah, I get to be part of this story. It's so much bigger than me. Yeah, it does not depend on me, thank God. But I get to, I get to participate in it. And, and hopefully, awaken more and more and more to the story as we go.

Vanessa Caruso: 39:06

Oh, I love the idea of awakening to the reality that Christ is with us and within us. And also that idea that we don't have to like, pick Christ up like a backpack. And if we forget to, we've been without the backpack for three months, you're kind of saying it's not a backpack. Price isn't a backpack there. God is with us, regardless, and sometimes we have the joy of noticing that. And then we go about our day or our week. So any ideas about kind of the some of the aplique application of these ideas? We've we've mentioned some along the way, but like, what does this look like?

Andy Withrow: 39:56

I think I mean, the thing that really jumps out to me for all that stuff is just the importance of our routines and rhythms like, Do not forsake the gathering of the saints of God's people. Like you want to. If you want to re instill wonder, then you have to have some sort of rhythm and liturgy for your life. Yeah. Have, as at every level, you can these these symbols and markers that, that bring you back into the story. Yeah. From, from just being in a habit of reading the stories, and inhabit like hate language, you know, inhabiting the stories, but, but living into them, and doing that really humble work of finding ourselves in the stories and then seeing the stories lived out in our story in our lives. And participating in, in worship together, where the symbols are, are there of these stories? I mean, symbols from from baptism with the, you know, we put the font at the back of the churches we enter in and some people like to put their little finger in the water and make the sign of the cross, like nothing magical about it. I don't think except in the very broad sense of magic that Louis or Chesterton might talk about, like, yeah, there is magic here. But to, to going up for for Eucharist, or communion, and receiving the bread and the wine or the body in the blood, to participating in prayers and the songs to our own symbols we might have around our house that remind us of the larger story. Could I mean could be anything?

Vanessa Caruso: 42:02

Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

Andy Withrow: 42:07

was just thinking out loud.

Vanessa Caruso: 42:09

That's where I go to initially, of course, moment, maybe not, of course, but I just am so in line with that, like, the rhythms and routines. And then also, what's coming to mind is just that, that openness, like I thought of, you know, the difference between if only, and what if, like that, if only kind of thinking that, that is so tempting for me. Like if only we had more money, or if only I had more time, or if only this happened or this didn't happen, then I would be happy or ready or present, whatever whatever the case may be. That just like never, never ends. There's like an infinite cycle to that kind of thinking. But the what if feels so different, like what if God knows my limitations and the limitations of my life? What if God knows our as a people in this time and place in history in the city knows our limitations and is, is working within them. And that posture just feels so different kind of waking up in the morning and you know, shuffling our way to our life with kind of a resignation, what your friend was talking about, which I totally relate with just kind of that like okay, it's gonna be a busy season or whatever the feeling is, the extended family got to make choices about money just that that different posture of what what if what if the story is open and the Spirit is at work in my life

Andy Withrow: 44:14

yeah, in what if and also I think I think for me, it's growing into a definitely is,

Vanessa Caruso: 44:28

Oh, I like that. Like

Andy Withrow: 44:31

the we talked about this, maybe an episode a few episodes ago of the too good to be true stuff, where it's like, what if we had a good father in all of this? who oversaw everything and was the head of our house, you know, our big household and, and promised to take care of us and work all things for the good in our lives, even even if we have trouble seeing it at times. To have that bigger narrative or that bigger story of I know that God has me and to, to live into that. But you're right. I mean, I think it has stages of, of, of being open to the what if, and then learning to live into the definitely is that this is so good. Yeah, this is so good. Even, even not not living an unreality of there's great tragedy and evil in our world and sometimes often impacting our lives. It's not ignoring that or not mourning it or being honest about it. But knowing that there's a bigger story at work, yeah, this stuff. I found something I wrote down. Great. That goes back to the beginning. Where Mary's traveling, okay, okay, I didn't write the very, very poor practicing. I didn't write the reference down of who this is from, but as this is most probably Hebron. Okay, yeah. A city of the priests in Scituate in the hill country of Judea, about 25 miles south of Jerusalem, nearly 100. from Nazareth. Wow. Such was the intense desire of Mary's mind to visit and communicate with a relative Elizabeth, that she undertook this long journey.

Vanessa Caruso: 46:22

That is long, yeah.

Andy Withrow: 46:25

long journey. And then just think about Mary's song, and in Hannah's song, the overlap there and the same themes. And I just wrote these three things down from, I think, from some theology book I was thumbing around in. But there's three disputes. In these songs, interesting to think about one dispute in their song is that people are hopelessly fated in their circumstance, I understand that one. Another one about human autonomy can proceed as at once. So it's the turning of tables. So those in power like are fine, no problem. Yeah. That human autonomy, I'm going to define my life or there's a well, there's the way instance of God. And thirdly, that counter political power can resist the Lord. So these are the three disputes of their songs, that they're pointing to the evidence of what's happening in their lives as data points that resist or that mound to the truth of, of God's victory. Wow, that's pretty intense. That's pretty fun. Yeah. That's pretty fun. And it's, it's a nice, it's a nice reminder that our spirituality doesn't just depend on us or that, that, that these truths or ideas about who God is, isn't just in our heads or our hearts, that we get to participate with our heads and our hearts into this larger thing that is out there. And that is happening. Like these are the song focuses on big picture like political events, and, and rulers and those who are in power and saying, No, that's all going to be turned around. That's pretty radical through what's happening in Mary's womb. And through what's happening as you and I go about our days bearing Christ with us.

Vanessa Caruso: 48:37

Drop the mic. So I

Andy Withrow: 48:38

got my notes. That's

Vanessa Caruso: 48:41

all I have to.

Andy Withrow: 48:45

Great happy happen. Yeah, everybody.

Vanessa Caruso: 48:48

Yeah, I feel a little bit like looking for the reversals, you know, and like when you said, Mary, Mary, and Hannah, have these data points from their own life data data, is Canadian, your data point? To that kind of touch on these conflicts are these claims. And it makes me just want to look for evidence of that. Yeah. In the world. Yeah. And it kind of makes me want to write a magnifica or a song like using hers as a template. And I don't know what I will say, but just to try to get into that space where I see what she's talking about. Through my own eyes. Blessing is the one who believes that there would be a fulfillment of those things spoken to her by the Holy One. To him,

Andy Withrow: 49:46

there's a song we sing at the table. Everyone's called blessing or blessing, receive the blessing of God. And it's one of my favorite songs because it's just it's just kind of that refrain.

Vanessa Caruso: 49:57

Sandra, isn't it?

Andy Withrow: 49:58

No, it's true. The beloved art sound Seattle. And was really, really good. It's actually it's Henry now and it's just worth sitting down put to music.

Vanessa Caruso: 50:09

Wow. Maybe you should play at the end of this podcast. Like their frame. Yeah, that's a good episode. I think I don't you mean it's like receive? receive,

Andy Withrow: 50:18

receive the blessing of God. Yeah that yeah receive over and over again. Yeah. And it's, I think because I'm trying to think of where as we're kind of at the end and think of practical stuff. Just think of Mary and Elizabeth, just receiving and reflecting on what's happened yeah. And that refrain at the end their blessing is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord, like being in a spot Mary being in the spot to receive what the what the messenger of the Lord had to tell her, which is probably why she was selected. Like, that kind of imagination. Yeah. And that kind of availability, imagination, availability, trust, and knowledge that the God that I know is the God who does this kind of stuff. Who turns the tables, yes, unexpected, who, who pulls the rug out from under neath the proud, it's too good not to be true. It's too good not to be true. And it's too good to be true at the same time. And as a posture for advent of just having some open hands, and learning just to receive the wonder of the season, the wonder of who God is in the story. And to receive it in our lives. What's the just sort of the image I have loving the season, take out where you're going to do and help me help me to be present enough to see it and to receive it.

Vanessa Caruso: 51:51

And to connect the dots to this is what I know of you, like she does in her song. Like this is actually very characteristic. The God that I have read about, heard about and know. Right.

Andy Withrow: 52:08

Thanks for now, so if my calculations are correct, this is our last episode of 2021.

Vanessa Caruso: 52:14

Oh, really? Yeah. Wow.

Andy Withrow: 52:16

So we'll see you next year new year. We think with some January