ADVENT: The God Bearer

Vanessa Caruso: 0:00

We also wanted to note a content morning for this episode. As we are rooted in Advent time. And looking at Mary's storyline in particular, we do discuss themes of pregnancy, labor and childbearing. So if you have an unmet desire to have children or have experienced infertility or pregnancy loss, we invite you to proceed with care, or to save this episode for a better time or to skip it altogether. And either way, know that we are thinking of you.

Andy Withrow: 0:42

Welcome to the bear with me podcasts on table radio, where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian life. All right, hi, welcome. I'm Andy. And I'm with Vanessa. Hi. And we're here in the table church studios. More or less makeshift? And we're starting a new podcast. This is our first one. If you couldn't tell episode one. Yeah. And we're going to try it out. So so the title of our podcast is intentional. Please bear with us. And here we are. It's Advent. Happy Advent.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:25

Admin. I love admin.

Andy Withrow: 1:26

Yeah, me too. I'm excited is a great time to start a new podcast because technically, to our point of wanting to integrate belief and practice, this is the new year. Right? This is the time to start. Yeah, new things. This is our new beginnings. Yes, it

Vanessa Caruso: 1:40

is technically.

Andy Withrow: 1:41

So here we are. With our new podcast, the new year, new ideas were feel a bit in over our head. But we shouldn't anyone can start podcast. Yeah, yeah. Why not? Us? Why not? Us? Right. If Annie and Vanessa can do it, you can do it. That's true. Anything is to be learned here. So we had we've been talking briefly recently about this new podcast about what we want to what we want to be and do and talk about. And we've got a few topics we want to talk about today. So let's jump in. Great. I've been I've been getting ready for preparing for a sermon in a couple weeks from now. It's going to be the fourth Sunday and haven't the last Sunday before Christmas. And my text is from Luke's Gospel. And it's the scene where the angel Gabriel comes to Mary and, and gives her some big news, some announcement news. And so I just want to talk a little bit about this because because as we've been talking in our neighborhood tables and some of our gatherings here at the table church, we've been talking about some of these themes and ideas, and we thought be fun to kind of talk about it on our podcast. So basically, this episode it's in, in Luke chapter one, the angel Gabriel has just appeared to Zechariah in the temple in the previous episode with, with some news about a birth, that he announces the birth of John the Baptist, Zechariah can't believe it. And then, for this episode, when the angel is sent to marry, it begins with these words, in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin. And I found that really fascinating as I was going over the the scene, because Luke is a historian, big time, he pays attention. And he gives these indicators of the precise time and place that you that these things happen. He's very concerned to communicate these things. And so he says things like, in the year that Herod the Tetrarch, was doing this or the year of quiet when Quirinius was governor, these things happen. So he's helping people locate according to these big political events, but here for this, maybe the biggest announcement of his gospel, he's doing something different, because that six months is in reference to Elizabeth's pregnancy. And so he might as well have set in at the end of the second trimester, the angel Gabriel was sent from God as his total reorientation of time away from the big picture, government stuff, that kings the things that are happening, you know, in the season, when Trump was a lame duck, and we were getting ready for Biden's ascendancy to the throne, or, or whatever, whatever the big news, items or the day those how to orient our time. Luke is now orienting us into it into God's timing. And so that brought up for Vanessa Earlier in some conversation around God's time versus maybe the way that we normally measure time, and tick tock time. Yeah. As you've shared with us before you preached a sermon last year, you talked a bit about this. And so I just wanted to start us there in the Bible. It's called Kairos time versus Kronos time. And Kronos time is the time that we are most used to. It's that tick tock, what time is it? What time have I set my alarm? In Kronos time is a different kind, or sorry, Kairos. Time is a different kind of time. And can you tell? Vanessa, can you tell us a little bit about the difference between Carol's time and tick tock time? Yes, please.

Vanessa Caruso: 5:44

Yeah, I loved finding out that there are these different versions of time, because I've had such a complicated relationship with time, I feel like many of us, maybe white people in the West is really what I'm talking about. Feel really burdened or pressured by time, at least I do. Like feeling like it's something I'm supposed to manage or time are blocks in my calendar that I'm supposed to, like steward Well, and, and it's really easy to feel like I've wasted time, or I'm losing time, or I just need more time in order to do what I think I'm supposed to do in life. So it's that it's crazy to me that Luke was talking in trimester time, like super imposing another economy of time. I think I always thought that just meant like June, or whatever their equivalent of like, the sixth month of the cycle of the year, you know, like I never knew it was it was related to a woman's pregnancy time. So yeah, Chronos time to me is, is that that alligator and Peter Pan with the clock around his neck? That just always goes like, Tick? Tick? Yeah. And it's just like, it's coming to get you. And I remember looking that up. And that alligator signifies in that story, fate, which is how I've related with time, it's just like, it's after you, it's going to get you it's going to catch up to you, you need more of it, you better resign yourself to it, there's nothing you can do about it. Kairos time is, is pregnant time. It's it's wisdom to me, like the difference between knowing stuff and wisdom. Wisdom has this element of it's like a magical element or an enchanted or something element to it, where it's the right time. It's the fitting time. I think it really means opportunity. I think that might be one of the definitions of Kairos is opportunity. So one of the verses in Psalms that mean something to me about Kairos time is better is one day in your courts than 1000. Elsewhere. I remember singing that at an even song when I first started coming to the table betters one day in your courts than 1000. elsewhere. And I thought, oh my gosh, what if that's true, better is one hour with God than 1000 I could do on my own. Like then 1000 emails, I could reply back, then 1000 penances I could do to try to make up for the wrong thing that I did, like better is one day with the Holy Spirit trying to discern something, then years trying to figure it out on my own. That's how it kind of has applied to me. The idea of Kairos time is that, yeah, there's this. There's this element of spirit or wisdom that actually redeems time it does. It's just not math. It's not one plus one equals two. If you do this, then this happens, then this happens. It's like in God's economy, there's this possibility that God can redeem time. God can create third ways where you thought there was just a or b black or white. The Holy Spirit can actually inspire a third way that is better than all the things I was striving I feel like striving sorry I'm talking so much that's good keep going striving for me is Kronos time, this CH time. There's this like element of trying to make stuff happen on my own. And it's overwhelming and it can make me feel bad and behind all the time. And Kairos time continually says or invites me to Cease striving and to get swept up in trust that God owns time and God is doing something in God's time and I just get swept up to it i i participate in it but I don't start it, finish it. Make It happened or not? Right?

Andy Withrow: 10:02

Yeah, that's the end even the idea of Chronos time. It's I think our relationship has changed over time. Thinking about even our even the last few 100 years how I mean, we didn't always have clocks. At some point people invented clocks, like we can measure time in new ways. Yeah. And, and, and so humanity has changed its relationship to that Chronos. Time over time. Yes. And to a point that we could argue this point in the 21st century to where it is. It's like it's, it's a slave master in a way that maybe it hasn't been in previous epochs. Yes. Right. And so there's the there's a popular book out right now called the real ruthless elimination of hurry by John Mark comer, he talks about, he talks about this very thing, like our relationship to this Chronos time has changed over time, to a point to where it is, it is a striving, it is anxiety producing, there is never enough of it, despite what technology promises, oh, it's going to give you more time. And then somehow we have less of it because of our technology, this, the constant beeps of our phones and email inboxes getting out of control and all the rest. And so that's fascinating to me. And just the idea. John, Mark comer references an article on sleep in his book? Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes. If you want to click a link to it. It's still available online. But this idea of I think they put they had a bunch of people come together, they deprived them of artificial light, and clocks, and everything they would tell, you know, all they had was this, you know, lightened day. Yeah. And over time, their sleep patterns reverted to well, they think reverted to an 11 hour sleep period, no way, with wakeup times in the middle of the night. Like they would sleep for about four hours, they'd wake up for the watches of the night, right for an hour or two, for quiet talking for maybe reading by candlelight, for for for whatever, whatever. Reflecting Yeah, and then they go back to sleep for a few hours. And they get for for morning time. Wow. And there's he cites this in the book, but there's evidence also that that's how ancient people used to just live. David talks about in the Psalms, I'll meditate you on you in the watches of the night. And I read that after reading that book in the sleep study. I'm like, oh, is David just talking about? Oh, yeah. When I wake up in the middle the night because I'm not going to sleep for 12 hours. Yeah. This is what I'll do. And it's a different pace of life than the constant. Oh, now we can stay up till 1011 midnight, get our seven hours or whatever we need think we need to get up or probably too early. Yeah, so that we can get our stuff done. Yeah. And that's just the way that the world has gone. And so this idea that you're talking about this Kairos time is God time, this pregnancy time is talking about living, engaging on a different understanding or a different way of keeping time. Yes, that is fascinating, and exhilarating, and exciting. But what is it? Good

Vanessa Caruso: 13:23

question,

Andy Withrow: 13:24

what is it? And what in? How do we how do we live into that time? I think of even just the section where where the angel comes to marry and Elizabeth's already pregnant. And, and Mary is getting the announcement in pregnancy as an image for keeping time or or maybe as an image for what we're talking about. I've never been pregnant. I will never be pregnant. I you have been? Yes. So you can speak with a bit more authority here. But that as an example, or maybe as a parable or an image for us of what does that mean? How does how does pregnancy time work different than tic tock time?

Vanessa Caruso: 14:05

Yeah, get on? Well, I think this is related. Something that came to mind for me, as he talked was St. Benedict. And his. There's a rule around the bell in St. Benedict's rule. And it was I mean, now it's pretty common, I think, in monastic places where this bell would ring at some point in the day and it would signal that it's time to move on to the next thing. So there's like work, study rest and prayer or something, you know, so there's like mopping the floors, reading sacred texts, praying and resting and eating. And so when the bell would ring one of the rules was you had to stop what you were doing immediately. Even like you He even said not to like cross your T or dot your eye. So there was this readiness when the bell rang. And he said, or the author I read who talks about him said, the idea was that you move on to the next thing, not because you want to, but because it's time. So it's teaching this way of being and living in the world where you trust that there's enough time. Like you're not it's not the center. You're not the center of it all. That there's one

Andy Withrow: 15:25

time siding. Yeah, you're you're externalizing, the decider? Yes. How you use your time who gets to decide that? Yes.

Vanessa Caruso: 15:33

And there's something good for us. There's something freeing in that frame. And doing that, and pregnancy is is like that, like how you do just want

Andy Withrow: 15:41

certain things happen. You gotta move, you gotta do something differently. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 15:45

there's not so much decision fatigue, right? Do I keep reading this letter? Do I study longer? Do I save dishes for tomorrow, it's just the bell rings, and you move on. But the worldview that you're investing in, in that is that God is in charge of time, God knows what the world needs to thrive, God knows what we need, as human creatures created ones to thrive. And so if we kind of are obedient or faithful to or trusting of moving on, or of letting things be done to us, and responding to them, that's how we're formed or our salvation comes from. It's not our salvation, but it's like a means of grace, to let time be done to us. Instead of being the masters of time, does that make sense?

Andy Withrow: 16:37

It makes a lot of sense. It's. And it's something that, that there's elements of that that long, that are really long for us, the freedom to not have to decide constantly, how to allow someone greater and wiser or, or God in this case, to determine, here's how, here's how you're to use your time. And just be like, Okay, great. I don't have I can give up. Me as the decision maker for those things. And I can be free to be more present in the moment, because I'm not constantly thinking, Oh, what about this? What about that? And just the way I don't think it's just me, I think a lot of us live with the To Do lists in our head. And when am I going to get to this, I need to make, you know, to be able to have some at least a level of freedom from that to say, this is the time I'm given for these things. That sounds really great.

Vanessa Caruso: 17:40

I know, in practice is so complicated. I mean, even a couple days ago, I think this was maybe two days ago, I looked at the clock and I had an hour and 27 minutes left before it was time to pick up Leo from school. And I felt so many feelings because that morning, I had just been really present. So I had longer conversations with neighbors than I usually allow myself I was present to my husband. And you know, like met a need for figuring something out. Yeah. I wasn't it didn't feel like I was a slave to my to do list. I felt really I felt like a human in the world with Christ consciousness, like, okay, there's stuff going on in the world. And I just need to open my eyes to it and respond to it today. But in that moment, I was I had a feeling of like, but now what, like I have all this stuff I was going to do. And I only have an hour and 27 minutes. But I feel like Kairos time made me think Hold on a second, like God, you know, that I only have an hour and 27 minutes. What's your What? What? How would you use this time? Or if you were me, or anything you want to help me figure out about the best use of this time, like what on my to do list doesn't need to happen right now. Even even switching my mind around like, I wasted all this time, like being present to other people. To maybe that's exactly a good day, today. And maybe God's great with that too. And there's freedom even in thinking Well, every day I have this desire to do 20 minutes of centering prayer. That's one of my priorities like I in my rule of life I have come up with if I'm do nothing else today, I'm going to do these two things. So I hadn't done that yet. And I thought, What if God's like, Hey, this is not like I don't know. This isn't a roll. I just talked about real but this is a relationship. I'm cool with you not doing that today. Even even for me to have the thought that God would be that I'd be able to relate with God about missing that 20 minute time. That's a priority for me. And, and not knowing how to use the rest of my time. I don't I don't have any conclusions about that. But it just felt new. And to not get into like the Tick Tock To Do List zone right after what felt like a lot of fruit of the Spirit. Yeah. In the previous part of my day. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 20:35

Yeah, it's it. I have, like, 10 questions. We don't have time for me. Yeah, ironically. I mean, we do. And I think the this may be our new podcast will for this time to come back and revisit these things. Yeah, I think this is a big this. Yeah, time thing is a big one that I think is important to both of us. Yeah. But I'm wondering like, I think of, I think I have to there's kind of two elements to this. There's like, there's paying attention and recognizing the time. And then there's acting, acting in the time, I think of Jesus saying things like in the gospels, you know, pay attention. Know the seasons, he's not talking about the Four Seasons, he's talking about the signs of the times pay attention, you know, when a tree is in fruit, so also you need to pay attention to what's happening and act accordingly. And so there's sort of that, that pay attention, he talks, you know, watch and pray. He talks about time's up kingdom, the kingdom of God is here. Here's the season right now, this is what you should be doing. And so there's that element of how do we, how do we pay attention better attention to the time? Yeah. And then how do we keep Kairos time? Is there any thoughts from you on that? I mean, you've talked about prayer centering prayer. Now I have to imagine when we think when watching and praying has to there has to be an element of slowing down and and being mindful of God, pinging being present to God who's always present to us. Yeah. The if there's a problem of presence, it's not. It's not from his direction. Now. It's our how to how do we slow down so that we can start paying attention to this different kind of time?

Vanessa Caruso: 22:21

Yeah. Yeah, for me, the what I kind of learned in spiritual direction training, as the basis for being present is stop looking, listen, that was how my program kind of framed it, having practices around stopping looking and listening. So stopping being something in a daily or at least regular way of silence, which for me, setting a timer for 20 minutes for centering prayer is is just an exercise, it feels like a microcosm of sacrificing my presence, it feels like a sacrifice of presence, like, there's so much I could be doing right now, there's so much I could be worrying about. But for this 20 minutes, I'm just going to be present to you. And that is going to teach me somehow, over time, throughout the rest of my day, to learn how to be present and pay attention. So stopping is that looking, is some form of examine or reflection regularly, where we we stopped to look back and make connect the dots between things that help us keep time or wake up or have hope, or pay attention, and to do more of those, and to strategize how to do less of the stuff that is not good for us, like shopping for me, for clothing, being in a mall, very few days. With that helped me to keep time, Mary, Mary like, because it just is not a great environment. For me. It does not bring me It brings me more towards self consciousness, rather than Christ. In my world, of course, you have to shop sometimes, but you know, that's one of the things on my list and then listening. So stopping looking and listening, looking at some kind of reflection or examine. And then listening is some form of coming to the Bible or for season it might be you know, another book or something really life giving book. And saying, I think there is actually something the Holy Spirit wants to say to me through this text, and I'm gonna not just read it and check it off the list, but I'm just gonna read a little bit of it and say, Okay, I'm actually I'm open. Is there anything about this that's alive for me right now. So those are the three basic practices To me that helped me be alert and stop looking listen has like an alertness. Yeah, it's like stay alert stuffs happening. Look out for the signs. Yeah, make sure you're awake and like you have your, your faculties engaged,

Andy Withrow: 25:13

right? Yeah, that's good. I think it's helpful. There's some overlap. I feel I think, I feel the most. I made the most present to God. And I think I sense the voice of God speaking my life most most recently when I'm when I'm in a discipline of memorization of Scripture. Yeah. There's something about it that forces me to do some of those things like to stop like, for when you memorize scripture, it forces you to slow down. Yeah. Because you just read through it and you. You miss so much when I have to memorize it. And I have to memorize what preposition is being used? What? Relative clauses like, why, why in the six month? What, wait a minute, that's the thing that forced me to slow down, I would have never noticed that just reading through it. Yeah, on my own, when I'm actually forced to slow down, and I can recite it in my head. While I'm in line at the bank or laying on my bed and can't sleep or whatever situation I'm in. Then I start to ask, Well, why is why does Luke say that? And I asked questions I wouldn't ask. Yes. And and that's, that's when? Yeah, that's when things start to open up the Scripture start to open up and if you're like, Oh, I think God is the Spirit of God is actually opening bringing them some of the significance of this out for me cuz I'm slowing down enough to pay attention. And it becomes so rich.

Vanessa Caruso: 26:42

Andy, we should do a podcast on memorization, a podcast on memorization, because I'm reading, I feel like there is so much there. Yeah, get it. I mean, to me, memorizing Scripture is an example of betters one day in your courts than 1000. Elsewhere. In the sense that, like you said, when you least expect it. I mean, you're right, I have moments while talking with someone or walking for school pickup or in the shower. And revelation comes about a, a word in the passage or an insight comes, that to me, communicates that we do not just learn by reading, you know, like that, that is so much how we think we learn like, I'm going to read this article, I'm going to research this, I'm going to listen to the sermon, and then I'm going to know, in reality, the way the Spirit works, or the way God wired us is to learn by doing by living. So maybe we needed to take a shower, while you know reciting this passage or not even sometimes I'm not even consciously reciting it. And a connection is just made. Yeah. That I could have done an exegesis on for three hours and not seen it. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

Andy Withrow: 28:04

yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's so rich. And I want to transition now into and if I wish I had a bell to transition us.

Vanessa Caruso: 28:18

Oh, my gosh, and we have to stop what we're, yeah. That's kind of fun.

Andy Withrow: 28:21

Yeah. Although I'm just, I'm the decider in this point. So yeah, it's time to transition. So maybe we should do it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Okay, anyway. It's an overlapping topic. It kind of transitions, I think, naturally is this idea of how God's kingdom comes? How does God work in the world? And, and I think that is, that's potent in the same passage where the angel comes to marry, and makes this announcement. Because he's gonna say, you are going to bet you will conceive in your womb and you will bear a son is going to happen. And this is how the Kingdom comes. Because this is God with us that she's bearing she's, she is bearing God in her womb, and carrying God around with her wherever she goes. There's that scene in the next episode as she goes to visit her relative Elizabeth. And when she comes in the door, or what happens, a jump in the belly. Yeah, John jumps in her womb, she leaps and the spirit is active there. Anyway. I thought there's a lot of rich stuff here for us to kind of just poke around in the same kind of in the same vein of living on God's time and paying attention to what does it look like to be discerning to watch and pray to live kind of when you're so I've been told when you're praying pregnant, you have to pay attention to your body what's happening? Your your more, you are attentive on a different level, I guess. Yeah. And paying attention. And I think there's, there's some parallels. I find it fascinating that this episode, God's Kingdom is going to come in full force. And it begins with this word from the angel. Like this is Mary's first introduction to the whole idea and concept of what's happening, how God is going to do this great reversals. It's so potent in Mary and she feels it so strongly. She's got she sings a whole song about it. In the called the Magnificat in the next in the next episode with with her cousin, Elizabeth or her relative Elizabeth. But it just begins with a word. And it's, it's small, it's seemingly invisible. It's just an announcement. And it parallels You will conceive in your womb, no one's gonna notice that, Mary Now you're going to notice that in the first instance, it's just going to happen, it's going to be not noticeable. This is how God can't God's Kingdom begins and it reminded me of all of Jesus parables, the mustard seed like you can't see it. Saltine stone, yes, yeast in the in the, in the dough, treasure in a field treasure and hidden in a field. There's the the for the parable of the forest soils with the seeds. And this one this one is it looks like complete failure, nothing's coming up. And then the last one is an explosion that's like way bigger than that make more than makes up for all the last seeds. This is the nature and so you have the startup, here's the word of the angel, you're going to conceive and you're going to bear a sign, it's gonna look insignificant. We know how that story goes. No one's recognizing him, except people who have inside information. But guess what? He's gonna be given the house of his father David, he's gonna rule over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will have no end like this is this is it? This is the new creation. This is what the prophets have foretold. This is the big thing going in action right now. seemingly invisible, seemingly nothing. And you're going to bear it in your body, Mary, you're going to carry this around for nine months, you're going to give birth to this one. You're going to raise this one from a baby. And that's it. That's the kingdom. Wow. And it's it's, it's not a one off. I mean, this is how God works. You have Hannah, you've got Sarah in the Old Testament story who's old and barren. Way past age. You've got Rachel, in the old story, you've got Elizabeth now. So this like God loves this image of barrenness, and then and then making something fertile out of it. You're right. He loves it. He loves the the seeming invisibility or, or failure, the apparent failure of the kingdom. And then it just being this resurrection, this explosion that nobody saw coming. Wow, loves to work that way. And so that's challenging, I think for us, because that takes practice and training to learn to pay attention on that level. And to take the things that look invisible, and impotent and barren, and like a failure and say, God, I think you're you're doing something here. You're you're at work here.

Vanessa Caruso: 33:44

Yeah, it's really, it's so beautiful. That to think of God loving like, those are God's favorite movies or stories. Something I, when you were talking, I thought, Okay, what, what is that seed? Like, what is that little thing that begins the big thing? And it makes me it makes me think that it's, I mean, what maybe this is probably another section you have, but um, it's Mary's saying, yes. It's being open to what God might do, and actually consenting to it, even though we don't know what it's gonna fully look like. And just in daily life. What I feel like that means to me is that prayer that I get to it feels like a really treasured prayer that I get to a couple times a year where I say, I realized something that's kind of keeping me from living the way I want to live or that God, how God wants me to live. And I finally come to a place to say, Okay, I am open to you addressing this pattern in me, or you doing something new was with a barren area of life, a dead dream, a ride off the 11th hour for closure on this part of my future, something like that. And so to me that seed is the, the willingness to be open to God and to consent to say, Yes, I give you access to me to do what you want to do in this area, even though I'm scared to look at it, or I'm scared to face it or admit it. Like now I'm remembering. I did something when I was like 2425, or something like that. I didn't tell anybody about it for a long time. And it was not good. Even I didn't even say that I said not good. And I had so moving to Victoria. So this is like 15 years later, I had this like very strong feeling that I really wanted to tell my family about it, like kind of come clean. I had already talked about it with my husband, therapists, a couple close friends. But I took a long time, like something that I was ashamed of. And I remember it just crossing my mind one day, you know, you can't make this stuff happen, where I'm like, No, I would never I could never tell them. You know what I mean? Like, that'd be so awkward. How would I bring it up? Just like, nope, not happening. And then as soon as that comes, you're like, now I'm kind of open to it. I'm kind of so it's it's that kind of prayer like, god? Is this something you? Is this for me? Like, is this would this be freedom or growth or healing or something? If it is, I'm open to it. I do not want to do it. But I'm open to it. And then like a month later, God always answers that prayer. There's like, God will make away into something big that if I look back, I would have said, No way I wouldn't have done that I wouldn't have had a child, or I would but you know what I mean, you're like if I knew this, but it's like this initial openness. And then God opens doors and makes away for for the kingdom of heaven, like the good stuff, the economy of God, the grace, and the peace. And I did end up telling my family and it was a great conversation. And I cried, and they laughed and made fun of me. And it was really healing. And it was only because the door I pass the door and there was a creek in it. And then I was like, I just want to keep walking. But for some reason I was like, I am open. If you know yeah, now it's in the balls in your court ish.

Andy Withrow: 37:44

Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a great image of our participation. With like, like Mary here, the participation with the word. Like there's certainly there's, there's, yeah, two things here, you've got the word is the seed. On the one hand, Jesus makes us explicit, like in his in his parables, right. And then But then you've also got the kinds of, in that case, maybe the kinds of soil like the not being choked by anxieties not being overly burdened, or, or your whole life is sort of oriented around even just what we're talking about with the Cronus time like the the constant striving and anxiety like there's no space or no room for God's word to actually take root and take hold and actually birth something in us as God bearers like like Mary is. And and I think that's helpful because because you've got these. You've got these images of that God overcomes you got images of barrenness, that he makes the barren fertile, you've got the images of exile, which is this estrangement from God, that God overcomes and says, I will be with my people, and they will be with me. You've got you've got this problem of death. That looks like from our point of view, has the final word over anything and everything we do, and God saying, Nope, I'm going to push beyond death. Yeah, lead you out of it, these big picture things. But in the meantime, if we don't have our bearings of okay, well, what God What are you up to? Then? Then it's one thing to be open, like, Okay, God can do anything. But God, what are you actually doing? Yeah, because not every bear in person gets to have a child. Right. And that's something to mourn. Yeah. But some do. And those are those are. Those are part of the stories. Yeah. And so, being open, and having an imagination like Mary does here. Seems like she's formed around the word to like, yeah, she's not surprised. I mean, I'm sure she was surprised. Yeah, but she's not scandalized that she was chosen. Yeah, like Zechariah can't believe like Zechariah has a poor showing in front of Gabriel. Yeah, go back to the previous episode. You got a lot of these encounters with angels or with God or where people they're not. They're not prepared. Like Mary appears to be here. Let it be according to your word. I'm serving the Lord. Like she's not scandalized. Like, oh, yeah, this seems like something God would do. Right. She has a logistical question. One question. Well, how how will this be since I'm a virgin? And then Gabrielle answers that this is how great sign me up? Ready? Ready to go. And and I I think that's a testament to her. Her ability to her paying attention. Yeah. Knowing what God is like from his self disclosure from from his words. And I think that's a clue for us. Because we have the same problems we've got we struggle with estrangement or distance from god yeah, like how who got where are you? Where are you in my life? How are you working there's no shortage of depression there's no shortage of despair thing like you're just going through life without hope without a sense of a future so we need all the same kinds of things that Mary needed and that that the people have heard there Israel in her time needed a whole world needed and and so the ability or the challenge I guess for us to figure out okay, how do we how do we slow down and pay attention? Learn to pay attention in that God timing and sort of turn down the volume on the KRONOS timing. And yeah, live live. Live in that way to where we can we can have that kind of response.

Vanessa Caruso: 42:01

Yeah. So inspiring.

Andy Withrow: 42:19

So Arcade Fire, one of my favorite bands, okay. One of my favorite albums of all time, the suburbs. They've got this song that I think encapsulates perfectly the idea of Kronos time. It's called Modern man. You haven't listened to now. Come on. Anyway, check it out. Okay. But it's, it talks about or it sings about the waiting in line for a number, but you don't understand like a modern man, this idea of how how the way that we engage with this modern age and the way we engage with time, this tick tock time, deprives us of meaning and significance. And even our humanity, it's kind of the major theme of the songs really, really potent, really great. Wow. Anyway, we've been talking about this about Chronos. Time and Kairos. Time, about pregnancy time, about what does it mean to bear God with us or bear the work of His kingdom? And carry it around with us? We don't really get into that. That'd be me. Yeah, for next time. Yeah. What does it mean to be a god bearer in our neighborhood? That's a pretty big idea.

Vanessa Caruso: 43:29

Write that down.

Andy Withrow: 43:31

Write it down, right. Next. That's great. We already got, like, three, I know. But what does it mean to live in Kairos time, I want to always and I would like to end our times with trying to think of practical stuff. And we've already given some of that you talk about stop, look. And listen, I talked about memorization of Scripture as as a means of prayer and being present to, to God's God through being present to his words. But if we could spend a bit more time on how do we respond to God's time in God's kingdom and God's presence? Yeah. And, and specifically, I can anticipate in my own heart and I can anticipate in someone who might be listening to this podcast keep it how do you not live in Chronos time and we can't we can't not live in that time. I still have to, I think respond to some of my emails. I still have to punch in to my you know, I have to be at work on time. You know? Can I be any good? My Oh, sorry, boss. I'm moving on. Chill out. Right.

Vanessa Caruso: 44:38

You are my boss. So maybe I could.

Andy Withrow: 44:40

Yeah, you might be able to get away with it. But But I can imagine that could be a stretch further. So what does it mean it? It might not it's probably not an either or it's probably you can't escape Chromeless time that's just the way it is. But it doesn't mean how do we have strategies for for paying attention even in the midst of a world around us that is addicted to hurry. Yeah. And addicted to productivity, productivity. Functionally, we're you know, we're just we're stuck with seems like we're stuck there and maybe even as a culture as a society particularly bad at getting unstuck and thinking in these other terms. So overdue. Yeah. Got it.

Vanessa Caruso: 45:28

Yeah, I there's this First and Second Peter, I forget what chapter but it says something like, regard the slowness of the Lord, as our salvation. I think some translations say patience, regard the patience of the Lord or the slowness. And to me, that is an encouragement, often to think, Okay things the monotony of daily life, and how much we do have to respond to emails and do the dishes again, and go to work and take showers and like there's just so much a part of daily life that is unavoidable. But I am choosing to believe that I can regard all that stuff what seems slow or long or monotonous, the KRONOS The Tick tock, as a means of grace for me like that God doesn't think it's not good. Like God thinks it's good for me that the sun rises every 24 hours, and that there's a new day, and that there's more dishes to be done and that I'm, I'm embodied like I'm restricted to this body. And that during the winter here, it's dark by 4:45pm. Like, instead of being scandalized, by those things, like you said, Mary wasn't? What does it mean to embrace some of the rhythms God has given to us and in the world, through our bodies, through the 24 hour day, through the invitation to take one of those days and resist through Sabbath, you know, to take some time each day, tie the little bit of our time each day and resist that productivity tick tock mindset and say, I am going to pray with this time. And then the rest of the day, I am going to be like a monk who goes about the work that is before me at this life stage. And it's always going to change but I'm going to regard the slowness of this endeavor called being human as salvation I'm going to trust that God is saving me and the world in God's time as I am a faithful steward to to what's in front of me. Yeah, for this time, you use

Andy Withrow: 47:55

the word resist and it made me think that this is this is like a this is a battle like there's there's work to this pushing against just the momentum. Yeah. Of Life around us. Yeah. And and I use the word addiction earlier because it does feel like that to me, me too. I get addicted to hurry addicted to all the patterns of filling up every moment with with something that has to feel relevant to me. Yeah. Authentic, authentic, or I have to self actualize or have to get all my to do list done, and then I'll feel better. And then all this stuff, which hardly ever any of it happens. Yeah, but it's this constant striving and to actually to do the hard work of forming patterns of resistance that are day in and day out. That's a that's the thing. And I think it's I think it's hard for most of us. Yes, very hard for most of us.

Vanessa Caruso: 48:53

i Yeah, it's hard on so many levels. One of them is that there is something counterintuitive to it, like even I mean I I'm a spiritual director, I meet with people to like help them listen and look and STOP, STOP LOOKING listen on their with their lives, you know, an hour a month. And yet it's still hard for me. Every third day, I have to remind myself, why it's good to spend 30 minutes, we're talking less than a 10th of my day, the hours I'm given in a day to just push everything aside and show up to God in a quiet room. And if I don't have a quiet room, wherever I am in the car before I go to something else. And just to show up, it's I have to remind myself every couple days, like there this is good to do because it does not feel like a good use of time. That's like my main. My main struggle is this is this is a waste of time.

Andy Withrow: 49:56

Yeah, it looks like it's invisible unnoticeable. Exactly ineffective. Yes. And a failure. Yes.

Vanessa Caruso: 50:07

Much less going to church and like participating in the liturgical calendar together. Like I was just having a conversation about Advent with a couple people and one person was like, He already came. Like, I don't really get it. Does everybody else know that? You know what it means Guys look, yeah. I don't have to break it to you. But like, what are we doing? There's a lot of churchy. I love all that churchy language about waiting and stuff. But he was like, I don't I literally don't get it, because it already happened. Yeah. So there's something counterintuitive about choosing to reenact this cycle, trusting that in the church calendar, there is a time to feast and a time too fast a time to wait. And a time to celebrate.

Andy Withrow: 50:56

I think the church calendar helps remind us that that is that this isn't just I mean, Mary is unique in that she physically carried the Son of God, yeah, her womb, but that there's something in here for us to as the church as a community and as individuals that God, this is how God is in the world. This is how his kingdom comes in us. And that there is something that we get to do in solidarity with Mary, in terms of, again, getting to that topic for next time, or whenever we're gonna get to it being being God bears in that way. Yeah. And yeah, so you mentioned the church calendar, that is one concrete strategic way to mark time in a different way. Think about what is at what is the season. Advent reminds us to do what it reminds us to wait and anticipate and think about pregnancy. Think about, think about the Kairos time as we've been talking about, think about anticipation. Think about is, is God doing something in me? That seems impossible? Because that's the kind of things that God does. Literally, like, yeah, that's Gabriel's saying, for nothing will be impossible for him. Like, this is like this is his work. Yeah. And he's like, great. Like for us to learn how to do that with Mary. Pay attention to his word, and pay attention to what's in front of us. It's helpful. You mentioned 30 minutes, maybe a good place to start. For some of us. Yeah. Who don't have a habit? Yeah. 30 minutes of slowing down.

Vanessa Caruso: 52:44

Yeah. And key for that, for me, is deciding that 95% of the success of that 30 minutes, is just by doing it showing up just showing up. Yeah. Because if I start to evaluate the 30 minute sessions, as like, that one was really good. I cried. I had a revelation. I have direction from my day. I feel good.

Andy Withrow: 53:12

Real came to me. Yeah. Told me what was going on.

Vanessa Caruso: 53:15

Yes. There are days that are feeling chanted. Yeah. And then but that's a slave master in a way because it's this kind of burden or this expectation to have that.

Andy Withrow: 53:26

Imagine how many how many days Mary had before?

Vanessa Caruso: 53:31

Yes.

Andy Withrow: 53:32

Were Gabriel didn't show up. Yeah. And absolutely nothing or seeming consequence. Yeah, happened. And yet she was prepared when he did. And you could tell there's there's hints all over that episode that she was prepared. She had the right mindset. She had an imagination for what God was doing. Yeah. In her life. Thanks for a lot of us in our, in our, our setting struggle to have that kind of imagination. Yeah. And maybe beginning to slow down and open ourselves up a bit more will be to do that hard, slow work. That might not seem super fruitful in the moment might seem like all the things I've been talking about invisible. Yeah. unproductive, fruitless waste of time. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 54:23

And even a starting point before the 30 minutes, because I feel like that's so on every podcast right now. You know, everyone, not everyone, it just that's a big thing, our habits and how we use our time. Yeah. And that can just feel at certain times in my life that can just feel like I'm not there. I don't even know how to tell you how 30 minutes is not gonna happen right now. Because I'm just, that's not in my realm of possibilities. So even the prayer before that to me, is that one I want to want to pay attention. I don't yet yeah, I'm too overwhelmed. I'm too anxious. I'm too angry at this situation in my life or this unmet thing, but I at least will pray the prayer. I want to want to pay attention. And then throw that ball back to God. And and see see what kind of conversation or what happens when we actually give the spirit access to do to do more in us. It's good. Yeah, I like it. Well, yeah, that was fun. That was fun.

Andy Withrow: 55:38

I think we should do this again. Metis was sort of an experiment. Yeah. We weren't like sure if this was a good day, but I had fun. So even if we have like zero listeners, yeah. Or if it's like just our spouses, or just us re listening to what we said. Let's just keep doing

Vanessa Caruso: 55:51

I mean, yeah. And

Andy Withrow: 55:55

yeah, okay. Well, thanks. Thanks, Vanessa. Thanks. Thanks for whoever's listening. On the other end of this glad you could join us. If you like what you hear, or if you've got ideas for future shows, just email us at Bear with me at table church.ca. See, I've already got the email. Amazing. Just came up with the title or the show.

Vanessa Caruso: 56:17

Did you say bear with me or bear with us? Bear with me? Okay.

Andy Withrow: 56:21

Bear with me. Right. Yeah, I think we're still it's still. We're still working out the time. We think it's bear with me. Yeah. Bear with me at table church.ca. Yeah, check out the show notes for links, and book recommendations, or anything else we might come up with. And we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.