How Will Kingdom Come? Part 1 - The Sower

Andy Withrow: 0:02

Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table radio, where we aim to integrate belief and practice in the Christian mind

Vanessa Caruso: 0:29

Great, great. I'm ready. I got my coffee. Nice. You haven't pressed start yet. We're back. Yeah, look, you press start. Yes. Wow, that's so good. We're recording. We are recording. Yeah, I asked if you had a Bible. Yeah, there's there's a lot in here. Yeah, there's Yeah. We're and I got my coffee. You've got your cream. It's 2022 it is it's a New Year's is our first recording of 2022 it took longer than we thought because yeah, is for those listening. 30 years from now, there was this pandemic. And we're in the Omicron phase of the pandemic just to kind of locate us in history. And so it just delays things I don't know if people out there are noticing this but just it can slow down lives.

Andy Withrow: 1:17

So that sort of happened it here we are. Yes. And

Vanessa Caruso: 1:21

we're drinking galloping goose coffee which drinking

Andy Withrow: 1:25

coffee which is a local brand pretty new. Really good.

Vanessa Caruso: 1:28

You can find it at root cellar. Really cool. Metal

Andy Withrow: 1:31

recommended. tins. Yes. Good. Responsible packaging. and tasty. Yeah, I like it. Me too. Here we go. Okay. So we're gonna do we decided we're gonna do parables? Yes. We don't have know how many episodes we're going to dedicate to it. But we'll just see. We'll see how it goes. And did you know Vanessa, that almost a full third of Jesus teachings or sayings are parables? No, a full third. Now that's a lot. That is something he did some of the time. In fact, it says explicitly in the Gospels. At one of several points in the gospels, he spoke nothing to the crowds except through parables that is radical. Like, that's all he did. It's at some points, at least in his ministry.

Vanessa Caruso: 2:25

Can you imagine if like a book, a book tour, like an author on a book tour spoke nothing to the crowds except through parables.

Andy Withrow: 2:33

Yeah. Do you think they get annoyed? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like illustrations, like comparisons? What can you hear this too. And I was reading how this was a It looks like this is a pretty common practice of rabbis in Jesus day, and around like he wasn't, he wasn't inventing a new form of teaching or going rogue with his style that this was pretty common. And, and it was, it was popular in large part because it was easy to understand you're trying to take something that is very abstract and unknown. Who is God? What is God like? And how do we see God and connect with God? In our everyday lives? How do we understand what's happening around us? And you compare it with something that is known farming in Jesus day especially, yeah. And or, or, or losing something in your kitchen? Or making bread or you know, all these or or having having a dysfunctional family, you know, a son who leaves and takes his inheritance with them, you know, all these all these things that are like at least either happened to people or they do regularly or they can have an imagination for what it would be like if something like that happened.

Vanessa Caruso: 3:54

Doesn't that seem so simple? In a way

Andy Withrow: 4:00

Yeah. Yeah. And accessible Yeah, whether you are whether you are another rabbi who had done all this learning and study you could still understand it or whether you weren't you know, any anybody else. And so it's just fascinating. He spent the week looking at the gods who have a third of his teachings in parable form. And then there's these bits were saying, well, he didn't teach anything except in parables. Wow. Now we're gonna we're gonna look at the parable specifically in Matthews, chapter 13. And just kind of kind of confine ourselves to those set of parables. So otherwise, we're just like, I don't know what like gold summoning pick everywhere. That'd be a fun different way to do it. But we're gonna stick here and kind of let that be our boundaries. And I think that's kind of fun and helpful because it there's there's a setting there. There's something that's happened before we get to Matthew chapter 13. And specific What's happened before the two chapters 11 and 12, is that Jesus is going all over Israel. And he's preaching in their synagogues. He's teaching in their towns, healing people all over the place. He might get tempted, and his disciples might get, and let's just set up shop here in Capernaum people will come to us, we're really popular and yes, nope, is not what I've come for. I've come to teach. Let's go to the next towns. And in Matthew 1112, he's been doing this has been going all over. And in 11, and 12, you see, there starts to be some resistance to his teaching, especially among the authorities, but not just the authorities. They're resisting his teaching. They're conspiring how to how to stop him how to get him into trouble. And then by the end of chapter 12, just before chapter 13 starts, his own family tries to come in. So it's one thing to have, like, run up against opposition, from from from others outside. But then when your own family is like concerned, and like, Jesus, you got to stop.

Vanessa Caruso: 6:18

What do they I don't know that what what are you referring to?

Andy Withrow: 6:21

It is his home family comes to get them? That's when they say come with that. One Mark's gospel, it's more it's more explicit. It's the same theme. Yeah. And they're coming because they're concerned that he's, he's not he's been out of his mind. Really? Yeah. Like, well, it's all this because I think in part because there's this growing opposition and their concern for safety. And he's opposing, essentially the opposing the temple in Jerusalem. And, and yeah, those kinds of when you say it like that, and he's got all this popular movement that's within but it's causing all this is starting to cause a lot of friction. And so he's got all this. All this opposition and all this tension building. And it kind of culminates the last scene with his family coming together. And then we get this scene here in Matthew 13. And we don't even necessarily read the first part, because we're going to read the first explanation of the parallel here in a minute, but says he left the house that he was in and he went out by the sea. And when I read that is like, I just had this picture, like, with those themes in the background? Yeah, it's like, just going out alone. Yeah, by the water. And if it was me, I'd be like, I'd be a little mopey. Yeah, I might, or I might be frustrated, or might be angry or might be reevaluating. Am I on the right path? Oh, yes. Things. I don't know what's in Jesus head at this point. He's out there alone by the sea. But then the crowds come as they inevitably do, because they want more. And that's when he says this. That's when he starts to suffer in Matthew, this is the first there's little moments where yes, kind of these parabolic moments, where is it kind of these teachings comparing things, but this is where he launched his full into just teaching parables now. And so I don't think it's coincidental a lot. A lot of people don't think it's coincidental that you've got all this opposition, you've got sort of this initial rejection. And now, okay, I'm gonna speak in parables. Wow. And, and I think in part, it's got to be because he's, he has meaning up against resistance. And so this is, this is a way kind of around, like, around some of that conflict, that direct tension, even though more is gonna come later. But as, as he's going to explain to his disciples, we're not going to get to it today. It's, it's also, it's also an approach to to teaching that force, it either forces people to kind of buy in and in and follow Jesus, or it might actually repel them. So yeah, there's there's and that's historically go back and read the the point of rabbinic parables is it forces it the goal of parables is to is to engage a decision on the hearers part.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:11

Wow, interesting. Are you? Are you in? Are you out? Yeah. Are you are you listening and you're hearing this in? Do you get it and you're gonna follow or are you going to are going to reject this? Yeah. And so that's very much a theme and in Matthew 13, that's so interesting.

Andy Withrow: 9:30

But so you've kind of got this this duality where parable, the the point of perils can can push people away. But it's also meant to pull people in. It's kind of this dual repelling, attracting type thing. And it is kind of like if someone went on tour and only spoke in parables, some people get really frustrated, and not like it. Yeah, maybe provocative like, what, what is he doing or what are you doing? Why is she doing that? Yeah, and force people to kind of think of it more and try to make the kind of see the connections that are being made. Anyway, these parables are all about the Kingdom of God or the kingdom, Matthew 13. Matthew 13. Okay, like, that's his. That's his thing that he wants to talk about to teach and to compare all these everyday things to farming, bread baking all that stuff fishing.

Vanessa Caruso: 10:32

Yeah. The usual the usual.

Andy Withrow: 10:37

So should we read it? Sure. Let's read that. Okay, so the basically what Jesus starts out with, with a very famous parable, the parable of the sower, the sower and the seed are the four types of soil depending on who you talk to. Okay. And I'll sum up the parable. And then Vanessa, you're going to read the Jesus explaining the parable aside to His disciples, He doesn't explain it to the crowd. Okay. Which is interesting. He's assigned to His disciples in a private moment. He's understand, you know, here, the parable of the sower. And then he explains what he doesn't do for others doesn't do for others. Yeah. There's something else going on there. I think it's that he? I think he's because he says explicitly this is for it. This explanation is for insiders, insiders get special info. And that might seem unfair. But I think the whole point is, in will we look at the kind of the paragraph in between this parable and its explanation. We'll look forward a bit further by think the whole point is that you, you can't understand the kingdom, apart from the king. Oh, apart from knowing the king, not just knowing about the king, but an intimate relational connection to the king. I think that's the point of his Isaiah quote, that we'll get to in in a couple episodes of why he's speaking in parables in what he wants to happen out of it.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:08

I want to know that now that I can wait, well, this is

Andy Withrow: 12:11

this is the this is the the spoiler, okay, is he wants people to to follow him to be to be insiders, with him to say, I'm going to trust you. The prerequisite to understanding is, is this trusting loyalty or this allegiance? So it's why he's favoring instead of like, you trust me, you're getting your you know, the king. So you get, you get the inside information.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:40

So the parables kind of like woo people in so you know, like, we're like

Andy Withrow: 12:43

provocative yadgir to them to make people think and wonder, and hopefully, pressed in.

Vanessa Caruso: 12:53

Yeah, like that. I'm thinking of when you hear something and you like, can't shake it. You know, that when a song lyric or a story or something, and for some reason, for a couple days, you're just like, oh, I can't I can't shake that. Like, I don't know what it means totally. Or why it was sad or but something about it. So the parables Whoo. But it doesn't end there. You're saying the point is

Andy Withrow: 13:20

to, I think, to come to be to come inside? Yeah. To follow. Yeah. And to and to have I think that there isn't a It's not enough to have an intellectual knowledge, but even a right theology. There. There's God desires more than that. Can actual relational connection. On some level, I think that's a big part of what this dynamic is about. And in the point of the parables of bringing people in, even though it's also going to repel others. Yeah. And that's, that's where you get the confusing quote for Isaiah. There's a lot of teasers for a couple episodes from now. So just Zandi. Just wait, well, we're getting sucked into it. But we'll get ready. We'll put a pin in that. Yeah. And let's because he starts this parable before he gets to that explanation. So we're going to look at this parable, first of all, backup and then in come back, okay. So he starts out, I'm going to try to sum up from memory. Oh, how well you do. And then you could read the Jesus explanation, but a sore went out to sow and as he sowing seeds, some fell on the path and couldn't take root. So birds come down and eaten, gone. Second, then he keeps sowing and some fall on the rocky soil. Yeah, and they can't take deep root but a little bit of roots come up and they spring up quickly. But then as soon as the sun comes out, they get scorched and they wither up. Yeah. And then some seed falls on this weed infested ground and It gets some roots. But as it comes up, it gets choked, so it can't grow. And then finally, some seed falls on good soil and it takes root and it bears it produces a crop, Some 100 Some 16 Some 30 fold. Yeah. Which is it's quite a bit. Yes. So, then he has an explains to his disciples in private, why he's speaking in parables, which we'll get to in a bit. Yeah. And then he explains to them, the parable of the sower,

Vanessa Caruso: 15:33

yes. Then he says, This is verse 18, in chapter 13. Here then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. And for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately, he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He under he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case, 100 fold and another 60. And another 30. Interesting.

Andy Withrow: 16:42

Yeah, so which we talked about first. So the wheat, so we were talking about how I think this isn't a two parter. Because the soils are sort of a big picture one, and then there's kind of looking at the four different just for clear distinctions of sowing seed into different types of soil. Yeah, that kind of deserves its own its own focus. So I thought we just look at three big ideas and the big picture of the parable today, and then we'll save the the soils for next time.

Vanessa Caruso: 17:12

That sounds great.

Andy Withrow: 17:13

So my first big idea, Vanessa, and I'm really interested what you think about this, and we've talked a little bit about it in Advent, because we're talking about the connection to this parable in particular, is that I'm not I'm not really sure what ancient farming practices were like, but this sower seems pretty indiscriminate.

Vanessa Caruso: 17:34

Certainly not careful. No, it's not super strategic. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't know how farming works. Let's just throw it out there. Just throw it wherever. It's fine. You have to have a lot of seeds to do that. Yeah. Yeah. That's

Andy Withrow: 17:50

another thing is like, doesn't seem overly concerned. There's not no doesn't have a poverty mentality around the seeds. No, like, maybe he's got some maybe that's the thing. It's like, Man, I have so much seeds. I don't know what to do with them. I've given some to my neighbors. Yeah, I can't give them away. Let's just throw it everywhere and see what comes up. Yeah. I mean, that that would make sense. That would make more sense. Yeah. But there's no sense of scarcity with the seed, like, oh, I need to plot my rows. I'm gonna put one here. And one here. One here. We're not precious my perception of how to garden in your backyard. Yeah. Because that's what I've seen. Yeah. My experience. Yeah. So. So that's interesting. It really, it makes me wonder if that's part of something meant to be a part of the point. It reminds me of just the historical context, or the literary context here in Matthew, is that Jesus has been literally going over the entire land of his people. Yeah. Every synagogue, every town. Lee's, he's on tour, he's going up and down and all around and teaching everywhere, doesn't end like it doesn't matter. Pretty indiscriminate, maybe to people, I think, why are you wasting time? They're not gonna. Not gonna be interested?

Vanessa Caruso: 19:11

Yeah, I like that. You pointed that out. I didn't ever make that connection between what was happening in Jesus's walk around life, you know, and this parable, they seem very related, especially thinking of the disciples. Probably saying there is a more efficient way. Yeah. And more sustainable. Yeah. A less exhausting way of doing this. And that's letting the people who are ready, like find us. Yeah, you know,

Andy Withrow: 19:40

yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 19:44

It does. So initially, it makes me think of this is like skipping to me, which is not always the most helpful when reading the Bible. But just how many people and situations I prejudge As something Yeah, like I've never been part of PTA at school, because I just think it's PAC or oh, sorry,

Andy Withrow: 20:12

Americanness.

Vanessa Caruso: 20:15

It's embarrassing. Pack it is your pack here. Yeah. See, I would know that if I went. But that's just an example of, I just have like this image of what that's like and what it's about and the kinds of, let's be honest moms who are part of it. And for good and for bad, I just think I'm not one of those, you know, like, so there's a lot of prejudging in my life about people in situations. And this doesn't. This seems like Jesus is coming from a different place very

Andy Withrow: 20:53

different. Yeah, like it cuz I mean, we would even say, and again, I'm not, I don't know, how to compare, like, what this would have meant to a first century farmer, peasant person. Go get me this.

Vanessa Caruso: 21:08

Maybe it's common practice. It doesn't.

Andy Withrow: 21:10

But for us, it's like, you're much more seems like you're much more discriminant. And this just seems like a bad way to garden. Or farm. Yeah. And so if that is part of the point, it does seem like that's a bit that would be a bit challenging for the years. Or maybe even a bit funny. Like, that's ridiculous. Why would they, you know, yeah, what a crazy what a waste of time. Yeah, waste of time, waste of seed, and all that sort of thing. And so that's, that's pretty, that's pretty fascinating. And it also made me think of, maybe even our, in our own history, or in our own lives. If that's really like, we, my experience as a pastor, both personally and then just hearing from other people, is that there seems to be this sense that my Why is God so quiet? Why is God so silent? Absent, absent? It's a real feeling. Yeah. But it makes me start to wonder if, if that's if that's the right paradigm or the right right frame, to think of God in his his God, quiet. Shy? doesn't like to talk a lot. That's a big sign. I suppose I should go reveal myself to people. Or say something to someone. Yeah. Or is it the other way around? Yeah, good question. Is God kind of talkative, maybe a bit more like you're talkative friend? Yeah. I guess is God's personality such that he really loves to disclose himself to reveal himself to speak. Was came up in the Advent one with John the Baptist. Oh, yeah. We're the word of the Lord came to like all this list of Emperor's and Tet sharks and the high priests, you know, the people in charge of the church or the temple? Like, where's the word of the who's got speaking to and it's John in the wilderness. And it raised the question like, Well, is it that he's just speaking to John? Or is John the only one who's who's in a position? To listen?

Vanessa Caruso: 23:30

Yeah, to hear it in the space was this was that seed scattered? Yeah. Sound everywhere

Andy Withrow: 23:39

I didn't this isn't a text I have ready but just popped into my head the Psalms. Where is it Isaiah, one of the prophets the Lord going looking to and fro the earth for, for something I can remember for someone would listen or for a heart that is maths pretty look this one up? Yeah, it's just it's in there. But I can't quite I don't know quite the specifics of it. But like, there's this searching for who's going to receive who's going to listen, who's going to hear that? I think that centers around the heart, or the seat of, of belief and trust and imagination, loyalty in the men that are tied to imagination and all the rest? Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 24:27

So what is it? What does it do for you to to apply that to your life and your pastoral life, that maybe there are all these seeds, even in the places in ways that you assume God's quiet or silent or distant or absent? That maybe you're kind of looking at it upside down? And what what appears to be a vacancy is actually there's it's actually full of reaching out to you or signs or?

Andy Withrow: 25:06

Yeah, I mean, even the question I think helps with an imagination shift, like, what if God is doing everything every day to, to, to reveal Himself to me or to our community or to this city or to this world? What if that's what true, and we just haven't been very good at learning how to be still? How to listen. Maybe some of its intuitive, and, and, and there's, there's a gifting aspect to it. But maybe some of its just skill and practice and learning. So, so, I would go to the classical disciplines, of how through history has the church, have people come into and learn to, to listen, and recognize and have confidence? And because that's those are kind of big ones, right? Yeah. Like, oh, God, I think God is speaking through this moment, or this person, or, or, or this, this passage of Scripture that I'm reading or whatever,

Vanessa Caruso: 26:13

yeah. Yeah, you're helping me to realize that, in this parable with the explanation, one of the interpretations could be that the Word of God is in places we don't expect, we expect the Word of God to be in the Bible. But we might not expect the Word of God to be in a pretty complicated relationship.

Andy Withrow: 26:40

Yeah, well, if we think that God is incarnational, if we believe that God is incarnational, that is he, he his nature is to be present to his creation in meaningful intangible ways. And if the scriptures are teaching us that, then then it, it would train our imaginations and our expectations to say, okay, that I'm going to start to look for you, in my relationships, and in the events of my life. Yeah. But for me, that's very, that's very difficult. Because why? Because I've lived my whole life. And I haven't. That hasn't been a normal habit or a normal practice. And so to to begin to try to shift imagination and then shift practice to follow that imagination. Yeah. takes quite a bit of work. Yeah. And sometimes, when we talk about spirituality, we don't necessarily usually connect it with hard work. Yeah. Like, well, it's spirituality should come natural. Yeah. Effortless, effortless, spontaneous. A laid back. Yeah, we there's this automatic Tying of spirituality equals these things in my experience. And, and it doesn't feel good to disrupt my life in ways with with heart with habits that are different, like, take effort, like if you're trying to exercise regularly, that's hard work. But you've got a goal in mind. That's worthwhile. And if it's kind of if it's more like that than some of the other things. I think that's counterintuitive for for a lot of us.

Vanessa Caruso: 28:30

Yeah. Yeah. True.

Andy Withrow: 28:35

So anyway, that's a challenge, I think, for me, and for us to like, let's think let's think about this differently. If if I want to learn to hear the voice of Jesus in my life, what maybe there's some habits I I need to, to push on or to work into my life. And that's gonna take a little bit of effort and energy over time, with high reward. Yes, we haven't gotten to the the payoff here, but it's going to be kind of ridiculous in the way that Jesus describes it.

Vanessa Caruso: 29:08

So I just had this experience last week, where I had a homework assignment for a program I'm in and I won't, I won't share the nature of it all. But it was one of those times where I just kind of went through the motions of the homework assignment. You know, it was a form of prayer. It was it was to pay attention to something and I, I just I was tired. You know, I had just woken up. But I went through the motions of it. And basically what I did was say, Okay, I'm open to this situation. Like, it brings up a lot of feelings for me, a lot of dread and confusion. It just feels really complicated. Like I'd rather not look at it, but I'm open to it today. Was it? Yeah, it was just saying that later in the day, out of the blue kind of it felt like, you know, in a moment of quiet, I was like in a group setting, but it was just like a moment of quiet. I just had a revelation about it. And not like a burning bush type of thing. But just a recognition of something I have neglected for a long time. And immediately I just, you know, tears came to my eyes. And I just thought I'm so sorry for neglecting that. And I experienced forgiveness in that moment. You know, in the saying of it's like, as soon as soon as that recognition is there, it's it's like the forgiveness was already. Yeah. Reaching out to me. Yeah. So it was actually pretty significant. And I was shocked that my very tired consent in the morning, lead to kind of an afternoon. A seeing it felt like pure grace, because I didn't do a thing. Yeah, except for say, I'm willing. And I'm open. Yeah. So that feels a little bit like, like all of this.

Andy Withrow: 31:15

Yeah. Yeah, there's this duality of even in this parable. It's like the seed does all the God is the sower, or Jesus is the sower. Yeah. And the seed does all the work. On the one hand, and so it's like there's in which is the Gospels, like, this is the grace, it's like, this is a gift. But there's this other side to it of, of our role in it, that that trust actually takes work. Trust requires habits that support that trust in our everyday life. And so in so I think it can be a little bit confusing, but those two things are both true at the same time. It's like this pure, unadulterated grace God gifts, it all does not depend on our effort is on offer. And yet to receive and to listen and to train ourselves to listen and to receive does take tremendous effort to learn how to trust when all your habits make you want to run the other direction. Yeah, takes tremendous

Vanessa Caruso: 32:25

effort. Yeah. Uncomfortable. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 32:29

Yeah. So I think I think both of those things are true, it does not negate the free the grace of the gospel. But it does also point to this other side of it of man, we do not naturally trust in general and to trust God is not in our, because of a bigger story that's happening doesn't is not in our bones. And that takes a significant shift. And it's like, It just occurs to me that that we have this a lot of us. And I grew up with it to just this narrative or the story that, again, spirituality should be easy, it should be natural, it's just something that happens. But why? Why do we think that? What Why shouldn't it be that the Creator of all things who, who as we engage with creation, we find that that we require certain habits to achieve certain good things. Exercise education, you know, any any sort of gold takes homemade bread? Yeah, day to day, like, Okay, I need to be more disciplined in these areas. And that's gonna take some effort, energy and work. Why would spirituality necessarily be different?

Vanessa Caruso: 33:56

I think I know why. I think I know why we confuse them. One of the reasons why at least, is because of a verse like Come to me all you who are weary and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. It is easy and light. I think we can confuse messages like that and experiences like that in the spiritual life. Yeah, those experiences of grace and forgiveness and flow, and synchronicity, some of the things that aren't totally everyday experiences when they're very formative when they do happen. Yeah. And they're healing. And we can expect that that's how it works. Yeah, and then we can confuse the work of it with you know, like, I know that when I was getting into the contemplative tradition and spiritual formation, people in my life were suspicious that this was kind of like a works righteousness ladder situation. Where you know, if you, you're saying you have to Be silent everyday for 20 minutes. Doesn't that feel like you're trying to earn something? So that's part of why it's problematic. Yeah. The easy and difficult the habit and the grace. There's these binaries that aren't actually real. Yeah, are helpful, but we live with them. Yeah, nonetheless.

Andy Withrow: 35:23

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think coming to Jesus and taking on his yoke and receiving from him is a training and it's I mean, the the image of the yoke itself is a training, your your yoga image, the CrossFit where tuition and you are, you are being trained into a new way, a grace way, Grace filled way of living, which does not come natural to us. Yeah. And it's easy. But it's, it's training. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:54

It's also hard.

Andy Withrow: 35:56

Is like the metaphor itself, that Jesus uses is, it has a tension, it has this seemingly contradictory nature. Yeah. Come to me, and I'll put a yoke on you. It's easy and light. It's the it's the it's the easy and light yoke. But it's a yoke on the last that takes training and practice. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good image. God's word is everywhere, at least seems to be

Vanessa Caruso: 36:22

a big idea. Number one. Yeah.

Andy Withrow: 36:27

And I think we'll come maybe come back to that idea. At the very end, but yeah, the second thing is that God's word is hidden, or, or hidden in the sense that just following the parable, it's when it's sewn. As soon as it's sewn, it's gone. It's underground, you can't see it anymore. You don't know, if it's working. You don't know what effect it had. You don't know if it's gonna come up and turn into anything, there's an invisible you don't see it, you don't get to see that part. You're not we're not, we're not privy to the, the individual workings out of the seed, as it takes root or doesn't in and in comes to fruit. And to go back. So we start with the historical situations, we talked about Jesus going, teaching all over Israel, all the synagogues, this is what I'm here to do. care who you are, I'm gonna I'm going to preach and teach. And and then you can just compare it to this. See, that does not look very impressive. And it looks like it's just even taking like, you could just say, See going to the ground, it's gone. If you didn't know how farming work, or her you could look at this parable and say, Wow, a lot of obstacles to the seed. Not gonna work on the path not gonna work on rocky soil not gonna work on weed infested ground. That's the majority of the sowing. It's failing. And so historical situation we just talked about chapters 11 and 12. And in Matthew's Gospel, looks like the teaching is failing Jesus. People are rejecting it. Crowds are fickle. Not everyone's following you. Authority authorities are, are challenging you. Your home family. You can't if someone couldn't convince their own family. Yeah. Wait a minute red flags here. Yeah. So why is Jesus saying this parable? Is it an apology? On the part in the apologetic sense? Like, oh, here's a way to understand what's happening right now. Because if you looked at my teaching ministry, it might look to you like it's not working and it's failing and why am I following this guy? Let me tell you the story about the sower in the seeds

Vanessa Caruso: 39:01

to very good, apologetic. Yeah, in that way.

Andy Withrow: 39:07

Yeah. Is just wait, just you wait. It's gonna happen. I mean, the problem is, it's going to get worse before it gets better. If you know the rest of the story. Like it's gonna really look like failure by the end.

Vanessa Caruso: 39:21

That does not sound

Andy Withrow: 39:23

why are we following this guy? What's the plan? It looks like utter failure. This is not what we were picturing Messiah. This is not what we were picturing a person from God. Their track record to look like. But we do this all the time. With in our in our lives and in our spiritual lives, I think. I mean, when you when you were on last time you were on a church. Pastoral hiring committee. Yeah. Were you looking for someone that looked like failure?

Vanessa Caruso: 39:57

No. This is an apparent failure.

Andy Withrow: 40:00

Yeah, just apparent failure.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:04

But so, like,

Andy Withrow: 40:05

which church would higher Jesus at this point? Yeah. Well, it really at any point in the Gospel story, except maybe like the high point of like, healings and popular, right?

Vanessa Caruso: 40:16

No, speaking only in parables that are failing. Something about that phrase is so beautiful to me, though apparent failure. I mean, it's, it's confusing, like, it's not what I expect, either for something that I, you know, believe in and give my life to. But doesn't it remind you of experiences in life that were in a, for all intents and purposes, an apparent failure? And then you know, something way more valuable than what success would have looked like, actually comes from it. That that feels like a pattern, or an equation that I do know about, from personal experience.

Andy Withrow: 41:11

It's the gospel pattern was the seed falls to the ground and dies. It will not. It will not come up again. It's over and over and over again. Yeah. Through the through the prophets, gospel picks up on that major theme.

Vanessa Caruso: 41:34

Know My instinct is to want to ask, why does it have to be like that? But that that question hasn't gotten me that far. You know, like to be like, Well, why couldn't you have chosen a pattern? Yeah, that wasn't so painful. Yeah. That That wasn't so scary, because there's like the liminal space between the pain violence and death or whatever. And, yeah, the fruit and this passage or the crop right, but I don't I don't I don't want to ask that right now. Like, why? Because there's no answer. Really? I mean, there are ways to think about it that home.

Andy Withrow: 42:17

Yeah. Yeah, so God's God's Word, the Word and maybe specifically the word of the kingdom here, or the work of the Kingdom here in Jesus life appears it doesn't appear very impressive once a small seed looks good. Doesn't look like unless you knew the nature of farming doesn't gonna do much. And Jesus whole point is I'm comparing this unknown thing to something that is known so that they can see that the word of God though, though, not impressive, though, it looks like it's failing, my ministry looks like it's failing and a huge embarrassing failure definitely does not look like something God would have his hands on, to help them understand why it looks this way. And that it's going to turn in the end, and why it's worth investing in. I like being a part of maybe me, let's go to the third point the pullback and do like it were kind of bring it to our, to our lives. Third, third, and last thing. So despite the hiddenness and the apparent failure, of God's Word of God's work in the world, God's word is deceptively potent, and powerful. So Jesus, preaching and teaching on the kingdom of heaven, his work. So again, we're looking at the historical situation of the gospel situation. His preaching and teaching on the kingdom of heaven, will issue in his very improbable, unlikely, unexpected rate of return. So it's an interesting parable, because most of the seed fails, but the stuff that takes root more than makes like the net benefit is like his way like it doesn't even compare because he's saying, so the the, the lowest one is the 30 times return on investment, that's 3,000% rate of return sounds

Vanessa Caruso: 44:32

I don't know about investment and that sounds that's

Andy Withrow: 44:35

that's it would Yeah, that'd be that'd be consider a high investment. Okay. I think 7% is pretty okay. So 378 percent is you're doing pretty well like for kind of your long term. Nice funds right? From what I know Okay. From the little that I know. I know that 33,000% is like your we're getting into like if you invested in Bitcoin, no back pretty early. You know, the gun the gun in the ground level and the cryptocurrency?

Vanessa Caruso: 45:03

Yeah. Did you know? Oh, sure. tunity.

Andy Withrow: 45:06

Okay. Next time? Yeah. Excellent. Okay. But that's the low one. So the high one is 100 fold. It's 1000 10,000% rate of return. So it's like this. It's, it's ridiculous what Jesus is pointing to? Same idea like the the basic Mustard Seed parabolics, smallest seed, large bush of the shrub of the field, right? It's like, How can something so big come from something so small? If you're a farmer, you're used to it. Probably it's become commonplace, mundane. But that thing, that's why Jesus is making the connections like you have to think about this in those terms. Yeah. Like you put it in the ground. And another parable that we're not going to get to in this chapter, it's not in this chapter is the farmer soza See, doesn't you know, he goes to bed doesn't, doesn't think about it doesn't know what's happening. And it doesn't, is not involved with the processes. He just goes about his life and waits for this thing that is way outweighs the, the input. Yeah, the little investment. That's what he's comparing it to, like, invest in this word, in this gospel in this teaching, in this communication, and these words, this the self disclosure of God to us, root in those things, hold fast to those things, let those things over time shape, your life story. And then you will be investing in these, these benefits of the kingdom, which we haven't talked about, because the parables are all about how the Kingdom comes. They don't even talk about the content of the kingdom.

Vanessa Caruso: 46:57

It's another which is

Andy Withrow: 47:00

in one, in one sentence or less. The whole Old Testament of lies about the Kingdom of God, it's like, well, that's our time for today. Yeah, we got to go. The the prophets are, are all over this, the and and the the first five books of the Bible is like, God, His concern is concerned about goodness, about human flourishing, about justice, about peace. And that is the kingdom is God's presence with us, and working out His will for all those things for for good life together with one another and with God. Where it's fair, and it's right in, it's good. And there's mercy. And there's justice perfectly balanced. So this is a very, very broad and brief description of the kingdom. And so that's sort of in the background. You would know this as a first century Jewish person. The question is, Why isn't it coming? Why is it taking the time it's taking why's it look like it's not working out? It will come these good things will happen in your life and in your community. throughout time and space, through God working out in these ways.

Vanessa Caruso: 48:22

So beautiful, Andy, if you had an altar call, I would, I would come

Andy Withrow: 48:26

up, every head bowed. Like bring the lights down, see my hand? I see that hand in the back of the office. But really, it's

Vanessa Caruso: 48:34

just so yeah, it just really resonates. And it's so beautiful. so inviting. Are we allowed to to apply it to our lives yet? Or anything more you want to say about that one?

Andy Withrow: 48:53

Now, let's I don't know, because maybe we don't relate. Maybe we don't feel like sometimes we don't see the kingdom of God coming in our lives. But I feel like I feel like sometimes that's what Yes, we I do relate. Maybe everything's always going great all the time. And just like I don't know what you're talking about. No, no. Okay.

Vanessa Caruso: 49:16

So one thing it makes me feel inspired about is, yeah, when when my life looks like an apparent failure, you know, and I'm thinking to the outside world, whatever that means. I don't even totally know what I mean by that, but just shaping my days in such a way that doesn't necessarily look productive or hyper efficient or strategic in the sense that what I'm investing in, you know, underneath it all is Like, I feel like my answers love, what I'm what I'm doing what my aim in my day is to love to love well. And that just doesn't necessarily look super productive or efficient. I believe in being productive and strategic as a Christian to, yeah, no, I'm not saying like, just just walk barefoot through the city for the day, which those people probably do know something, actually, about the kingdom of heaven. But so there's that kind of constellation that comes from kind of following my instinct about what's important, and resisting the temptation to, you know, catch up on Instagram, or whatever I might feel like I need to do in order to get my life together. So that comes up for me. And then also just something about making mistakes, like when you're talking about the seed and how much of it there is. And that's not really the issue. It just reminded me that, that there's not a shortage of forgiveness. That's not the tone you get from Jesus's life, or from the Bible for me. And he just did one of those.

Andy Withrow: 51:28

Yeah, I went to my Oh, my desk, and it wasn't there. And I almost went to

Vanessa Caruso: 51:33

school. So I feel kind of like, a little bit of a fire around why am I so afraid of making mistakes? Like I'm I can be really hesitant. I can overthink, I can like, try to plan out having a conversation about something because I just don't want to make a mistake. Yes. And the overall tone I'm getting from this conversation is go for it. And yeah, I need to ask for forgiveness. Because I said something. I, you know, exaggerated. All right. Yeah. It wasn't the right way to say it wasn't good timing. Yeah. Or? I don't know. Yeah. Then you just there's more seats, like no big deal. Yes. That's one of my takeaways. Yeah,

Andy Withrow: 52:18

I like I think that's a really great takeaway that came up in one of our, a couple of our neighbor tables too. And we're kind of going through this passage is just what the one person said, Well, I'm always so guarded about who I share what with in terms often in terms of their, their relationship with God, or what they're sensing or what they're hearing? And they said, This really challenges me to be a bit less afraid. A bit more like, just free with what I'm sharing? Yeah, that's stupid or silly. Or, or, or undiscerning on the one hand, but just like, maybe it's more okay, just to share who I am as God is shaping me the way that that he's shaping and speaking to me. Yeah. And yeah, there's room for like, Oh, am I that? You know, if that came at the wrong time or the wrong way? I'm sorry. Or? Well, that's probably gonna breed more relationship, isn't it? Yeah, and and I think I think that's yeah, there's, there's something there for me too, in terms of just a bit more trust, that God is present in working through things and to just say the thing or to do the thing that's sort of on my heart or in my mind, yeah, at times. I suppose it's being so guarded.

Vanessa Caruso: 53:46

Yeah, I like that. And also, it makes me it reminds me that I've probably said this before it because it's like an ongoing thing for me that there isn't this long. It's Mary Oliver's poem, you don't have to walk 100 miles through the desert repenting. Like, I just assume that if change is going to take place in me, I have to like really work for it. And I have to pine over it, have to struggle for it. And it's going to come in the future. And there's something about even the fact that Jesus relates big ideas of the kingdom to farming or breadmaking. Yeah, it kind of feels like he's saying it's not out there are over there. Or then or when, like, they're the way this works is that you can actually change today and not change forever for all time without ever having to change again, but there's like a light heartedness and as an add to just responding whereas my instinct is to like be all emo about it. Yeah, you know, for a long time, right? It feels like That's unnecessary.

Andy Withrow: 55:01

Yeah, I think so I think there's I just think there's a freedom that comes with really believing and trusting that God wants us to turn to Him and loves us and is ready to restore that, that relationship. Like, if we really, if I really believed that, then I then then there would be all sorts of freedom not to carry around this. What was me this guilt, the shame. And I could be instead move towards gratitude and think live out of a general thankfulness and enjoyment of life, even even in all its hardships, and in the, in the harder things and the difficult things. And, and, yeah, that's, that's a big amount that's been a big imagine of shift in my life of, I'm never going to be I'm never going to be good enough in my own in my own efforts. So I'm going to give up that pursuit. And I'm going to trust God at His Word, to say, You are forgiven you're, you're my son, and you live in my house. And and it's my pleasure, that you're in my house, living this way. So go on, go about your business. Go Go do your work. And, and I'm with you. It's it's really simple. And I think that's the easy that's the easy yoke of it, but believing it is the hard work. It's like to keep those two things together. Yeah. Like your free easy. I've done that where is finished, I've done that work looking at the gospel. So go go live does this is an all just do that?

Vanessa Caruso: 56:51

Let Yeah,

Andy Withrow: 56:52

let me to say great. But that is the word of the kingdom is this word of mercy and peace and grace. And that is the that is the that's why I'm abroad broken record if you come to the table church, but there's why confession is one of my favorite things is this invitation to return. Because it's what the doors are wide open. But I'm not going to I'm not going to put you in a headlock and bring you into the house, turn and come into the house. And let's restore. But it's really it is a whole nother episode of the podcast about how to how to let how to really trust despite our our own history, our own badness or what what's been told to us, in our past about who we are, to let go of those things. is a is a whole, a whole podcast series in itself. But that's what's on offer.

Vanessa Caruso: 57:52

Well, it occurs to me that the the grace and the mercy and the returning is like that is way simpler than we make it out to be. But the soil is way more complicated and convoluted and distracting than we think it is. Like we underestimate kind of the wrong things. We underestimate. What

Andy Withrow: 58:19

the obstacles the obstacles to, to coming to and totally in, into, into remaining in.

Vanessa Caruso: 58:26

And then we overestimate the obstacles. You know, like, Wait, it's just

Andy Withrow: 58:31

wrong. Yeah, maybe maybe we we think that we don't, we think it's the wrong things that are gonna keep us from being in but it's these other things over here that we don't give enough weight to. Yeah, that's good. It's a nice. That's a nice little segue into next one. Our next episode. Yeah, yeah, that's good. But it didn't occur to me, as we're talking about that. Even that image of the door open and confession come in. And he's made me think of another parable. Which of the of the kid who left home? Yeah, and didn't go well? Yeah. And he's like, hits rock bottom and comes back home and it's like

Vanessa Caruso: 59:16

I'm gonna be a servant.

Andy Withrow: 59:17

Yeah, I miss a speech ready? I'm gonna do it and all this stuff. And it's like, doesn't doesn't even have time to get and we're not covering this, this parable. So I wanted to bring it up here but yeah, doesn't even get his speech out. That he was rehearsing. And as his dad's like, jumped, jumped the porch fast and running out and getting a service to come and get get some new clothes on. You are having a party tonight.

Vanessa Caruso: 59:42

Something awesome.

Andy Withrow: 59:44

Don't worry about cuts, catch all that stuff later. Like, isn't that amazing image.

Vanessa Caruso: 59:50

Amazing if that was a movie, like it sounds like Shawshank Redemption. He would watch it. Oh, yeah. And I would weep. I would it's too good to be true.

Andy Withrow: 1:00:00

Yeah. Yeah, that is good. On that note, let's, let's end there. And we're, that was a great teaser for looking at what are the real obstacles to, to walking through the doors to coming back. And, and remaining in is that John 15 image of the vine remaining in Jesus as our as our as our life source. It's a nice comparative parabolic image of this being rooted in, in I mean, that's, that's not the image of the sower one because we're just talking about roots and soils but but I think that is behind all of this is what are we rooted in in terms of our life source? So okay, great. Thanks. Nice to be back. Yeah, back in the tiny tiny town bear with me studios here. And we're gonna do we're gonna do a bunch more on the parables. So join us next week for part two of the sower or the parable, the four seeds for the Four Soils sorry. And, and we'll look at the obstacles to to seeing Jesus. Right. Okay, have a good week. Bye. Bye, everybody.